what will it take to beat a neon acr in autoX?

logic_bomb · Mar 21, 2002

i have a 2000 ZX3 5-speed with the following mods. Eibach pro-kit(shocks,struts,springs), esslinger udp, diablo chip, and soon i will have a set of 205/50/15 falken azenis(i'm waiting for them to arrive). given equal drivers what will it take to beat one of these things. the reason i'm asking is i've read the article in GRM about pocket rockets that had ZX3Murphs car in it. even with the head package it was not able to beat the neon. what makes those things so frickin good?

OmniFocus · Mar 21, 2002

They just handle that well. I've driven our ACR back to back with the Focus, and couldn't beat my own time, even driving the Focus AFTER the Neon.

Your suspension is a good start, but the biggest chance you've got is to tune the big nut behind the wheel. If the guy is experienced, I'd say you don't have much of a chance. If he is of similar skill level, then it is certainly possible.

Even worse, if he is wearing R tires, then you've got that much more of a disadvantage.

I personally have beaten many Neon ACRs with my stock suspension Focus, but I don't think it was the car doing it.

MichaelXi · Mar 21, 2002

Our local regional non-pro STS Champ is a 50-something yr-old man in an ACR w/ only Koni's and good tires. He Left-foot-brakes ALWAYS, and kicks everyone's ass by a mile, while making it look smooth and effortless. He's outta my league. I'll be happy the first time I beat his cute 17yr-old daughter....

She nipped me by less than a 10th a few weeks ago, so I know I'll get her, but DAD is outta the question w/o several year's experience.
Y'all need to realize that Autocross is a BLAST, and can't be beaten as far as learning how to control your car is concerned.
At the same time, it IS an ART!!!
You can't just pick up a brush and expect to paint a masterpiece...
Unless you have nothing but bad drivers in your region, it'll be awhile before you can count on winning.
Race YOURSELF, and the closest guy that beat you last time.

It's a gentlemanly sport. No shame in not "Winning". It's all about learning.
For A LONG while.....
THEN you can work on "Winning"....

[ 03-21-2002: Message edited by: michaelxi ]

ZXmurph · Mar 22, 2002

Well a number of things-

--my car ran an average of about 1 second slower- significant but not insurmountable.

--the ACR has always been a great autocosser. It has much more aggressively valved damping with the Koni's vs. my road-friendly Cup Kit...this is most helpful in the quick transitions of autocross.

--I guarantee all the drivers had MUCH more familiarity with the ACR-- it has been around as a known quantity for awhile.

so overall I was pleased to be in that ball park and only in a more wide open course could I use the FocusSport power to my advantage. With a bit more camber up front, and a slightly larger rear bar I would be right there on the small courses.

and remember what I posted elsewhere about my experience Soloing a Neon-

"I have SOLO'd an ACR and they are quick.....its just that whole problem with a turn signal switch coming off in your hand, speedometer stops working, seat adjuster jams, power steering pump sounds like a strangled cat, and at the end of a lap- the car locks me in!! yeah...chrysler I was convinced that they started a free labor camp with retarded one-eyed, mutant monkeys with three asses on the assembly line with Dr. Moreau as foreman....."

logic_bomb · Mar 22, 2002

ok well if you had a focus with 150hp, stiffer springs, adjustable shocks/struts, would you be able to be competitive with a stock ACR, given equal drivers?

ZXmurph · Mar 23, 2002

absolutely

I just can't stress enough how a "stock" ACR ain't that stock compared to most sport compacts.

[ 03-22-2002: Message edited by: ZXmurph ]

351 Pinto · Mar 23, 2002

3 assed the monkeys

PBZX3 · Mar 23, 2002

ZXmurph: You mention a larger rear sway bar in your post. What size are you running now and what size are you thinking of going to? I have the kw variant 1's on my car and am looking into rear sway bar options. I have the stock bars now. Would a 22mm rear bar be enough for auto cross or is a 25mm bar a better choice?

[ 03-23-2002: Message edited by: PBZX3 ]

mark a · Mar 23, 2002

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by ZXmurph:
absolutely

I just can't stress enough how a "stock" ACR ain't that stock compared to most sport compacts.

[ 03-22-2002: Message edited by: ZXmurph ]<hr></blockquote>
That's exactly the point. the ACR has what you could best describe as "cheater parts" on it, which is all well and good, but the D/Chrysler company gets upset and takes their ball home when other brands are allowed to sell trunk kits, e.g Honda civic Si. The ACR also has factory R and D on these machines.

OmniFocus · Mar 26, 2002

I hardly consider a set of Konis cheater parts, we can install those on the Focus as well.

The rest of it is base model Neon.

I've had no troubles with the reliability issues that ZXmurph mentioned... Especially getting locked in since ACRs don't have power door locks.

MichaelXi · Mar 26, 2002

You know, Until I fell in love w/ the S2, I was also "Neon-Shopping". I had a great experience in a rental in Arizona, and their design seems to lend itself to handling fairly well.
I'm glad they didn't make the 2-door anymore, and that manual trannys were impossible to find...
Otherwise I wouldn't be in my MUCH-LOVED Focus S2...

I know the Focus was the better choice for the $$$, but based on my first hand experience w/ a 2001 Neon, I was impressed, to say the least.
Remember, we're talking "Affordable" cars here, so No Flames... I know it's not a Porsche

ZXmurph · Mar 26, 2002

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by OmniFocus:
I hardly consider a set of Konis cheater parts, we can install those on the Focus as well.

The rest of it is base model Neon.

I've had no troubles with the reliability issues that ZXmurph mentioned... Especially getting locked in since ACRs don't have power door locks.

<hr></blockquote>

We're on the same page O.F., for a FWD'er I did love how the ACR handled- genuinely tossable and for the record the inside door handle came off in my hand- not a "power lock" problem

I still think more *seat time* and similar parts would make the Focus/ACR match-up a luck/driver/planetary alignment thing only--basically what we already know .

and O.F. , I did speak in my usual, overally colored with attempts at humor, manner regarding my impressions of ACR quality. While they were distinct in my experience, I can understand they may be far from representative of all Neons.

OmniFocus · Mar 26, 2002

Yeah... I'll fold to Chrysler build quality. Ya know how some people can get with some of their favorite cars.

I DO feel much more upscale in the Focus for sure... then when I drive my Omni, I realize the Neon falls somewhere in the middle!

I agree, I'd like to see a similarly equipped Focus with well tuned springs/shocks/bars, and about 20 extra ponies to push it around the track... with base model ZX3 options.

As Focus drivers, I DO feel that it is our duty to beat up on all the Neons and Hondas we can! As a Neon driver, my main targets were just Hondas.

Your colorful wording is always enjoyable, keep it up!

ZXmurph · Mar 26, 2002

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by PBZX3:
ZXmurph: You mention a larger rear sway bar in your post. What size are you running now and what size are you thinking of going to? I have the kw variant 1's on my car and am looking into rear sway bar options. I have the stock bars now. Would a 22mm rear bar be enough for auto cross or is a 25mm bar a better choice?

[ 03-23-2002: Message edited by: PBZX3 ]<hr></blockquote>

The Grassroots tests revealed the CupKit to have good camber control at the front wheels with the by the test that doesn't lie-- consistent, pretty well balanced tire temps across the tread after each run. It also seems to reveal that I don't need to obsess about running more negative (I love saying "more negative" George Carlin would be proud)camber up front quite as much as I do, nor does one need a hell of a lot more roll stiffness up front.

I have been able to rotate the car fairly well as is (stock bars), and would believe a 22mm rear bar would "speed up" the rotation just enough, without the abrupt "off throttle" behavior a 25mm might bring.
There is probably a lot of personal preference involved in these considerations for everyone, and they are moot when trying to figure out effects on Foci when set-ups may have very different spring rates and damping characteristics.

I did learn in my GTIs that I would sometimes mistake very loose pointability with "fast".

[ 03-26-2002: Message edited by: ZXmurph ]

what will it take to beat a neon acr in autoX?

logic_bomb

OmniFocus

MichaelXi

ZXmurph

logic_bomb

ZXmurph

351 Pinto

PBZX3

mark a

OmniFocus

MichaelXi

ZXmurph

OmniFocus

ZXmurph

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