This kit is only 300 and i'm wondering if it works as good as the Quafe will? Anyone have any experience with these or know how they work?
![Image]()
![Image]()
Anyone tried Phantom Grip LS conversion?
DirtyFocusZX3
1 - 20 of 20 Posts
Joined
·
784 Posts
This kit is only 300 and i'm wondering if it works as good as the Quafe will? Anyone have any experience with these or know how they work?
![Image]()
![Image]()
I don't think anybody in this forum tried it, because it's a piece of junk. Installation charges for a diff will be more than the price of the diff... so why spend the money on something gimicky like that only to have to pull it out again later.
I think they call it "Phantom Grip", because nobody is really sure where the grip is.
![Image]()
It's just a couple of blocks that load the spider gears in the stock diff. The stock diff wasn't really designed for that, and I'd hate to see the mess in your tranny after several thousand miles of steel on steel rubbing this thing makes.
The locking ratio is fixed. So when you don't want locking, you're gonna get it anyway. When you want more locking with big power, you only get that same locking ratio.
So, as you're off throttle going around a corner, you get a moment about your front wheels that makes the car not want to rotate. Yet when you're powering out of a corner, you don't get as much locking as you'd want.
All bad stuff.
The Quaife works so well because the locking ratio changes with the load input. Off throttle around a corner? No stabilizing moment means the car can rotate easily. Powering out of a corner? The more power you got, the more it can lock.
Then, you get the additional benefit that when you are in a corner and apply power, it sends more torque to the outside wheel with the most load on it. This makes the engine power create an addition rotation torque on the car. As you add power, it makes the car want to rotate even more!
All good stuff. I kinda think of it as one of those magical technological advances. Some body stumbled upon it as a good idea for an LSD (torque sensing locking ratio), and didn't even realize "Holy ****, this thing will REALLY work well in a FWD car".
If you figure the FG is what, $200, and it'll cost $500-800 to have it installed. So $700-1000. Or, $600 for a Quaife, plus $500-800 makes $1100-1400. Yeah, it's more, but I'd say if you can't afford it, don't bother, and just do nothing. Save your pennies for the Quaife.
Does this deserve to become a "vehicle dynamics" post?
I think they call it "Phantom Grip", because nobody is really sure where the grip is.
It's just a couple of blocks that load the spider gears in the stock diff. The stock diff wasn't really designed for that, and I'd hate to see the mess in your tranny after several thousand miles of steel on steel rubbing this thing makes.
The locking ratio is fixed. So when you don't want locking, you're gonna get it anyway. When you want more locking with big power, you only get that same locking ratio.
So, as you're off throttle going around a corner, you get a moment about your front wheels that makes the car not want to rotate. Yet when you're powering out of a corner, you don't get as much locking as you'd want.
All bad stuff.
The Quaife works so well because the locking ratio changes with the load input. Off throttle around a corner? No stabilizing moment means the car can rotate easily. Powering out of a corner? The more power you got, the more it can lock.
Then, you get the additional benefit that when you are in a corner and apply power, it sends more torque to the outside wheel with the most load on it. This makes the engine power create an addition rotation torque on the car. As you add power, it makes the car want to rotate even more!
All good stuff. I kinda think of it as one of those magical technological advances. Some body stumbled upon it as a good idea for an LSD (torque sensing locking ratio), and didn't even realize "Holy ****, this thing will REALLY work well in a FWD car".
If you figure the FG is what, $200, and it'll cost $500-800 to have it installed. So $700-1000. Or, $600 for a Quaife, plus $500-800 makes $1100-1400. Yeah, it's more, but I'd say if you can't afford it, don't bother, and just do nothing. Save your pennies for the Quaife.
Does this deserve to become a "vehicle dynamics" post?
rob, ive been thinking, and with the ****load of torque a turbo puts out, even the quaife is useless
I mean right now i light up both tires instantly anyways, around a corner, if i punch it it lights em both up
The only time i wish i had it is those times when going around a corner in 2nd or 3rd and giving it moderate throttle, sometimes only the inside wheel lights up, but im not sure if that instant alone is worth the $600 + install bill
As far as drag racing and strenght, i already have the euro control billet open diff so at least i know i can launch on big slicks without breaking it....but the more i drive my car the less i think the quaife will do with this much torque(and only more coming later)
Not sure though, still thinking about it, im putting my new clutch in soon so i gotta decide, plus i gotta take out the 4.06 gears, anyone need some for NA application? They are useless with this much torque
![Image]()
On the bright side, at least i have a nice traction control now, i call it a SLIPPING CLUTCH, 2nd gear i cant even do a roll on tirespin because the clutch doesnt hook up perfectly....but if i shift hard to 2nd, it lights it up to redline, and gives a nice spin in 3rd if you shift fast, roll on is useless with this POS clutch
Metallic 4 puck is on order
![Image]()
[ 12-06-2002, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: nazthug ]
I mean right now i light up both tires instantly anyways, around a corner, if i punch it it lights em both up
The only time i wish i had it is those times when going around a corner in 2nd or 3rd and giving it moderate throttle, sometimes only the inside wheel lights up, but im not sure if that instant alone is worth the $600 + install bill
As far as drag racing and strenght, i already have the euro control billet open diff so at least i know i can launch on big slicks without breaking it....but the more i drive my car the less i think the quaife will do with this much torque(and only more coming later)
Not sure though, still thinking about it, im putting my new clutch in soon so i gotta decide, plus i gotta take out the 4.06 gears, anyone need some for NA application? They are useless with this much torque
On the bright side, at least i have a nice traction control now, i call it a SLIPPING CLUTCH, 2nd gear i cant even do a roll on tirespin because the clutch doesnt hook up perfectly....but if i shift hard to 2nd, it lights it up to redline, and gives a nice spin in 3rd if you shift fast, roll on is useless with this POS clutch
Metallic 4 puck is on order
[ 12-06-2002, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: nazthug ]
Joined
·
3,007 Posts
Naz, when is the throttle not going to be a on/off switch for you?
and will you EVER understand how the quaife works?
useless?? You already made me pass out in another thread with your reasoning why you didn't put it in this time, are you trying to kill me?
![Image]()
![Image]()
and will you EVER understand how the quaife works?
useless?? You already made me pass out in another thread with your reasoning why you didn't put it in this time, are you trying to kill me?
Joined
·
5,592 Posts
what didnt do it 4 me is the # of times i've been w/ctzx3 and others 2 the strip or via video/pix of events w/him present. is that he cant get a consistant response from the diff when burnin out from time 2 time. sometimes both go, sometimes left does, other right does, sometimes he cant get eithe goin til he lets off and goes again. granted this is in a drag arena, idk how he and others w/it feel bout it in referencin 2cornerin and apex exit performance.
Joined
·
717 Posts
For even cheaper, there's always the old "weld the diff together" trick that some small-time ClubRally guys use.
![Image]()
I had one of those in my rally car for about 10 miles of driving. Now I have an open diff so I can actually drive it on pavement. It's a horrible horrible thing. I'm sure it works fine on gravel but the car is an uncontrolable beast on asphalt. For the love of god, don't weld the diff.
Joined
·
31,810 Posts
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I knew a guy that filled the diff on his Horizon with epoxy... it worked about as well as a welded diff until it exited the case at the 4th autocross.
I don't trust Phantom Grips... It just looks like such a bodge!!! Bottom line with a Focus is that a Quaife is so cheap, that you might as well get a real diff. In a car with only $2k diffs available, things might be different.
Joined
·
56 Posts
now im not going to say its the best thing ever made but on of my friends has one on his 89 probe GT. his motor is built and im talking 8 injector 24PSI of Boost built. not sure what this thing would do at a autocross. but it works for his drag racing. dont know what else to say. If he comes over this weekend i will have him post whats up with the thing and how hard or easy it was to install
Yes, I'm sure it's "better than nothing" for drag racing. But even that is questionable, as Ultegra says. Damn... I can light up both tires with the stock open diff, if CTZX3 has a problems with the PG, is it really "better than nothing"?
For the money spent on the install, it's crazy to put one of these things in.
And remember, this is the motorsports forum, so we're talking about handling. In this case, the PG is WORSE than nothing!
![Image]()
For the money spent on the install, it's crazy to put one of these things in.
And remember, this is the motorsports forum, so we're talking about handling. In this case, the PG is WORSE than nothing!
Joined
·
784 Posts
Thanks P, your post really clears things up in my mind about how the Quaife works. Wow thats a lot for installation. If I ever get the Quaife i'll try to get my friend to help me install it, he's really good at that stuff.
![Image]()
[ 12-07-2002, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: DirtyFocusZX3 ]
[ 12-07-2002, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: DirtyFocusZX3 ]
i dont remember the explanation exactly,
but what it does is, when the wheels are pointing straight it locks the differential so both tires spin equally (does so through springs and pins) does not work when the wheels are turned....
i have heard good things about this product...great for dragracing, but doesnt do too much for autocrossing.
jim P.
but what it does is, when the wheels are pointing straight it locks the differential so both tires spin equally (does so through springs and pins) does not work when the wheels are turned....
i have heard good things about this product...great for dragracing, but doesnt do too much for autocrossing.
jim P.
Joined
·
784 Posts
My car spins both tires in a straight line anyways
![Image]()
so theres really no advantage to the PG huh just disadvantages in the corners.
Joined
·
31,810 Posts
Well... If I recall correctly there are actual testimonials from road racers that claim to have success with it.
It is most certainly not ONLY a straight line device....
My only concern with it is that the contact surfaces MUST wear much like a clutch... whether it is the spider gears or the device itself, I don't know. Something has to give over time... so I can't see it working great forever like a Quaife or any other ATB Diff.
[ 12-09-2002, 12:56 AM: Message edited by: OmniFocus ]
It is most certainly not ONLY a straight line device....
My only concern with it is that the contact surfaces MUST wear much like a clutch... whether it is the spider gears or the device itself, I don't know. Something has to give over time... so I can't see it working great forever like a Quaife or any other ATB Diff.
[ 12-09-2002, 12:56 AM: Message edited by: OmniFocus ]
Omni, I'm always skeptical about how it works even for road racing... I studied differential action for Formula SAE in school, and any kind of clutch type diff causes handling problems. Maybe the benefit of a little extra traction outweighs the disadvantages. I dunno...
But, for sure, there is going to be wear of the parts, and you're going to end up with lots of little metal filings in your tranny which is never a good thing.
Anybody know what the blocks are made of steel or alumninum? Steel filings might stick to the magnet in the tranny, but aluminum wouldn't.
But, for sure, there is going to be wear of the parts, and you're going to end up with lots of little metal filings in your tranny which is never a good thing.
Anybody know what the blocks are made of steel or alumninum? Steel filings might stick to the magnet in the tranny, but aluminum wouldn't.
Joined
·
717 Posts
Maybe the road racer testimonials were from guys who are constantly driving slightly off-road and bouncing a wheel or two into the air. Then a clutch-type diff would be better than a Quaife
![Image]()
.
For the quarter-second that the wheel was in the air, anyway.
For the quarter-second that the wheel was in the air, anyway.
Joined
·
3,007 Posts
On that tangent......there are a few I.T front runners with VWs that are actually, as unbelievable as it sounds, going with a welded diff. instead of a quaife, when they could have had either. It did indeed have to do with an occasional wheel in the air off curbing but also some driver style considerations. It goes without saying that this would be a road race ONLY application.
I'll try to find the forum link, it was a very curious read.
I seem to remember DFL and I rambling about it around here a few months back.....
I'll try to find the forum link, it was a very curious read.
I seem to remember DFL and I rambling about it around here a few months back.....
1 - 20 of 20 Posts
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
