Ford Focus Forum banner
61 - 80 of 168 Posts
Ducman69, No, I have only done two Focus' 1TurboFocus and Mr. Pressurized. Lots of other Fords though
Image


SE-RMAN, I don't have anything for a '92 NX2000. There are two ways to go about it. Your car may be early enough where it has a removeable eprom. If so, someone out there probably has messed with the code. You need to find a program that will show you the e-prom data in english language timing and fuel curves, this is often called a mapping program and I have some for pre-OBDII Chevys. Once you know where the curves are you can make changes, reburn the eprom and do some dyno testing.

THE BEST STUFF CHANGES THE FACTORY PROGRAMMING!

Since about '94 all cars had to go to OBDII and those eproms are not removeable. There is some stuff out there that will let you make your own settings but it is limited.

If reprogramming the factory ECU is a dead end then you have to go with something like a UniChip which will change the timing by either interupting the signal out to your coil (distributor system?) or modifing the crank or cam signal coming in to fool the computer into more or less timing. This system works well but does not give access to other stuff such as rev or speed limits. I hope this helps.

Mike
 
Ford EFI Programming 101: Did You Know?

Did you know that the Ford computer can defeat most of the popular fuel enrichment devices?

The Ford system runs in 3 fuel modes. Closed Loop (CL) is when the ECU watches the O2 sensors and changes the fuel delivery (by as much as 30%) to achieve a stoichiometric air/fuel ratio of 14.7:1. This mode is commanded under idle, most part throttle and easy acceleration conditions. Adjustments are stored in the KAM, keep alive memory. Open Loop (OL) is when conditions are changing too rapidly for the computer to rely on feedback from the O2's, usually mid to high load. WOT (we all know that one)is simply OL with a few adjustments.

Now here is the important part... The ECU applies the KAM "learned" adjustments to OL and WOT. That means if the engine is rich in the midrange, at the top of its adjustment range, that stored correction factor (as much as -30%) will be applied above that RPM and Load value.

So if you add a device which happens to make it run a little rich in the mid-range, expect a leaner condition at WOT than when you first put it on.

How do you correct for this?? Funny you should ask, I can turn off the "adaptive mode". The car still runs CL for good economy and emissions but will not learn itself into spark knocking.
 
If you want a Chip Guy / Turbo Tom chip for your A/C car, then your best bet is to get a bunch of people to bug the hell out of A/C Jim so that he will help with R&D costs. Since he will be able to amortize those costs with every unit sold, the price will eventually come down. The catch is that you have to convince Jim that is in his best interest to add this chip as part of his pacakge. Economy of scale. If every A/C 3 car is sold with a chip, the costs of R&D will be paid for way faster (and with much greater security and certainty for Tom) than having people call up Tom one by one. Same concept as a group buy, but this time the group would be all subsequent A/C 3 sales, and perhaps a package for current A/C 3 owners.

This solution does not take into account any of the variables that the Chip Guy and Tom have spoken about. Computer codes, mods and general variations in engines, for example. That is a bridge that will need to be crossed. 5th injectors don't care what your computer code is and neither do Haltecs, MoteCs, SDS, TEC 3's or Pectels.

Lucky for me, this sort of stuff is merely a sideline interest. I still don't have the one mod I think the car really needs so a turbo and great EM is way down the list. Still, great thread.
 
Turbo-ZX3, All EFI systems work pretty much the same way. By providing the diagnostics port, where you plug in the chip, Ford has given us a window into the ECU that no one else has and an easy way to change the programming, hence Ford tuning is more prolific and therefore a bit easier. Most (80%) of my experience is with the Ford system so I feel most comfortable talking about it.

By the way, the other way around the Ford fuel learning is to use a device that acts only at WOT where no learning occurs.

Mike
 
Discussion starter · #66 ·
the problem is that AC wont do this because they already have the 5th injector which seems to work just fine most of the time, so why change, its just that some people like me dont want the 5th injector setup
 
Someone enlighten me about this 5th injector setup. What size is it? It gets fuel from the end of the factory fuel rail, right? Do you boost the fuel pump to keep up with the extra demand of another injector? Is it full open when activated, or rpm ramp for pw, or boost ramp?

Mike
 
ChipGuy-- The 5th injector is used on the Aerocharger, I think it seems to work well. At least mine does
Image
The injector is placed right above the throtle body. It uses a external line from the fuel rail.

It uses a little box that is taped into the MAF so it will not shut the fuel off at 4.95v. The injector will fire around 3,500rpm or so at WOT, along with the stock injectors.

I was trying to find out what size the injector was to...

Aero Jim what size is it.....
Image
 
The fifth injectors operates like this:

When the voltage of the MAF reaches 4.2V, the the 5th injector fires at the SAME DUTY CYCLE as the main injectors. This provides a jump in fuel supply of somewhere around 25%. This will depend on the ratio of the 5th injector to main injectors. I'm not sure what the 5th injector is, so I can't guess at the ratio.

As the voltage goes up 4.3, 4.4, etc... the duty cycle of the fifth injector climbs with the main injectors. The 5th injector is simply running off the same signal as the main injectors.

When the voltage of the MAF reaches 4.95V, the SFMS "clamps" the signal to the computer at 4.95V to prevent the 5V fuel cut.

The 5th injector is still running at the same duty cycle the main injectors are. Which has got to be at or near 100%.

To answer Chip Guy's question:

The computer has it's own compensation for the draw of the 5th injector. I have an Autometer electronic full-sweep fuel pressure gauge (=accurate!) and there is NO change in fuel pressure when the 5th injector turns on.
 
Discussion starter · #70 ·
good explanation, i dont know what it is, but i just dont wanna have that 5th injector. HOpefully if FS comes up with something better, i'lljust go with that, if not...we will see
 
P-51, Thanks for the info. Sounds like a decent setup. You are right, the ECU monitors fuel pressure and will increase the duty cycle to the pump if is sees a drop in pressure so it will compensate for the extra draw of the 5th injector.

I think you may be confused with what happens when the MAF hits 5.0volts. There is no "fuel cut" but rather the ECU cannot accept a higher input value. The ECU does an analog to digital conversion of the 0-5volt signal from the MAF. When it hits 5.0 volts it is at the top of the digital conversion table and cannot go any further. What happens then is that even if you are only at 80% on your injectors, if your MAF hits 5volts the ECU cannot call for any more duty cycle. (this will not happen, of course, w/ stock injectors/MAF) There is also a setting for the max MAF value set in the ECU at about 4.85 volts so this is the real max on a stock ECU. I have seen a MAF go to 6.5 volts and the pulse width to the injectors just flatlines once it hit 5.0.

I would be curious to see the A/F ratio progression as this system operates. I suspect that by 4.2 volts the stock injectors are nearly maxed, so the 5th will come on at or near 100%. That is a heavy hit. I would think the system will go slightly lean first just before, then go pretty rich with the 5th comes on, then settle out to a good ratio at the top of the rpm band.

What sort of peak fwHp numbers are being made with this system? From that I can calculate what size the 5th must be in order to make a BSFC (brake specific fuel consumption) of at least 0.55 - 0.60.

Mike
 
Discussion starter · #72 ·
this system with the 5th injector has seen 200whp and about 220-240ft/lb of torque at the wheel at full boost, which is 10psi midrange, 8psi topend.

CHIPGUY:

I have been wondering, which chip management and larger injectors, whats the stock MAFS good for as far as HP. Some people say they can control fuel and larger injectors still using the stock MAFS and just major chip management, including Diablo. Is this possible, or is it a complete must to recalibrate the MAFS for the larger injectors? Im getting confused answers to this and dont know who to believe. Its getting really really frustrating. Some say the stock MAFS is good for 200whp easy. Please clear this for me if you can, i know most the jet would also appriciate your input on this
 
Nazthug, Excellent Question!
Image


My car is a '93 Mustang Cobra. Back in those good ole days the MAF was sized (calibrated) to handle about 5% more air than the injectors could fuel. In other words you would be at about 95% on your MAF when you hit 100% on your injectors. Somewhere around '96 or '97 Ford start using MAFs with alot more range. You might not notice it by watching the voltage but remember that the Mass Flow vs Voltage curve is not linear. Ford is using a meter that ramps up rapidly on the upper range (5.0 volts is 50% more air than 4.2v!). What I have found on the newer Mustangs is that although they come with 19# injectors (GT) the MAF has enough range to support 24# or even 30# injectors. Even if you do hit 5.0v on the MAF a tuner can still add more enrichment using the WOT Fuel Enrichment function which adds fuel at WOT according to rpm only.

I have access to the factory Mustang/Focus MAF calibrations. Pro-M has kindly posted theirs.

The calibration on my '93 Cobra meter is capable of reading up to about 2600 #/hr of air. At an A/F of 13:1 that requires 200 #/hr of fuel or eight 25# injectors. My Cobra came w/ 24#ers... not much room to spare (5%).

In comparison the Focus (99&00 JFA8) uses a meter that can read up to 1200 #/hr air, thats four 23# injectors (21% more than stock 19#) at 13:1 or four 24# @ 12.5:1. Under 10psi boost and using pump gas you better run a BFSC of .55 or so. That equates to about 175 flywheel Hp or 150 rwHp (ooops fwHp
Image
).

So how can a tuner support 200+ rwHp using a stock MAF?? Use BIGGER injectors first of all. Then there is a WOT fuel enrichment function that works off rpm only. So figure out what rpm your MAF peaks and add more fuel from there... and you better do it live on a dyno and then richen it up some more for safety.

The problem I have with that approach is the same as with the 5th injector setup or the FMU systems (boost fuel pressure) on older Mustangs. It has no regard for the actual MAF into the engine. True MAF can vary significantly with air temp and pressure. If you use a ram air kit it will definately vary with speed.

The best setup is a MAF/injector set that is sized for full range of your requirements.

Mike

[ 02-10-2002: Message edited by: TheChipGuy ]

[ 02-10-2002: Message edited by: TheChipGuy ]
Image
Image
Image


[ 02-10-2002: Message edited by: TheChipGuy ]</p>
 
You say there is no 5.0V fuel cut?

I'm not sure I agree with that. I have seen evidence that the injectors do shut right down when MAF=~5V. I've seen A/F maps when using 5th injectors without a 5V MAF signal hold where the A/F ratio takes a dump at ~4000-5000rpm no reason. We believe it was the stock injectors shutting down.

The guys at DiabloSport told me that the reason is at 5.0V MAF signal, the computer switches over to a 1 dimensional fuel map. The table just looks like 5.0V=X injector duty cycle. There is no rpm variation.

And it just so happens the X value is 0. They were supposedly able to run some turbo engines past 5.0V simply by putting a value in that location. You lose all rpm variability, but at least you're getting fuel.

Chris F posted a dyno graph a while back from the 5th injector setup with A/F tracking.

I believe that at say 4.1V, the A/F was about 12 or 13:1. When the 5th injector starts firing, it jumps to like 11:1. It holds around there as rpm and airflow climb, but when the MAF signal gets pegged at 4.95V, the A/F starts to rise as the rpm rises and the airflow goes up with no increase in fuel. At peak HP, the ratio is like 12.5:1.

The injector is a compromise in that you have to have it large enought to supply enough fuel on top of the stock system to hit 12.5:1 at make HP, but not too big that it drowns the motor when it first kicks in.

One very interesting part of the whole thing is that the engine needs it's richest setting at maximum cylinder fill: Peak torque. This is roughly when the 5th injector has the highest A/F ratio.

Some people bag on the 5th injector for no reason, but it actually works quite well. It's a bodge, but it works well at lower power levels like the AC.

I wouldn't want to do it with Tom's setup. But for 200fwhp, for $200, it can't be beat.

The only reason I don't want it is because I do a lot of lapping, and I can't have my injectors at 100% for 20 minutes...

You talk about the disadvantages of 5th injectors vs. varying MAF, but it works fine for lower power levels.

At 3000rpm, the turbo is making full boost, and the computer is happily doing the job just fine, holding at around 12.5:1.

As the rpms pass 3500rpm, the engine is approaching it's peak torque, which means peak volumetric efficiency, peak cylinder fill, and peak combustion chamber pressure. This is when it needs a rich A/F ratio the most. This is when the 5th injector kicks in. The ratio drops to 11:1, the engine is happily getting a nice fat fuel supply to avoid detonation.

As the RPMs pass 4500rpm, the SFMS holds the MAF voltage at 4.95V. So as RPM goes up, airflow goes up, fuel remains constant, so the A/F goes back up. But the volumetric efficiency is also dropping, so cylinder pressures are going down, so fuel requirement is going down. By 5300rpm, the A/F ratio is about 12.5:1. Which is fine.

Past 5300rpm, the airflow actualy starts to DROP. (contrary to what some people think). Past this point, A/F ratio is going down again.

And the proof is in the pudding. Some have spent thousands of dollars on stand alone engine management systems and dyno time, and gotten no increase in peak hp, just some mid-range torque.

The only thing wrong with the SFMS for 200fwhp, is for those of us who are lapping.

I've actually thought about just working with him on a custom SFMS that holds the voltage at 4V or something like that, to keep the main injectors at 80%. Then, use a variable rate 5th injector.

Are you planning on developing software for computer codes other than JFA8? I have a 2001, and if I'm looking at $600 for a chip, $200 for a MAF, and $??? for a JFA8 computer... then a stand alone engine management system is getting more and more attractive.
 
P-51, Thanks for the info. No doubt the 5th injector works well. I'll have to do some checking on the ECU reaction to MAF over 5.0volts. The Mustangs seem to flatline at whatever duty cycle it was at when it hit 5.0v.

I don't mean to be overly critical of these alternate setups... I just want to point out their limitations and how the factory ECU may react.
Image


We are currently hacking away at LFQx which seems to be the most common '01 and '02 5spd code. I'll let you know when it is done. It is completely different from JFA8 so it will take some effort.

Mike
 
Discussion starter · #77 ·
damn. The only thing i dont like about the 5th injector is that i will always worry about what if it isnt working like ZXsith's? What if 1 of the wires came loose? ANd its so flimsy on that tube, it just bounces around, the hood even squashes it when its closed. I just wish it was simpler for us to control larger injectors damnit. Without having to spend tons of time on a dyno and having to tune the chip on the spot, since no dyno guys around here have any knowledge about our cars, it sux
 
Discussion starter · #78 ·
well...if they improve on the design, incorporate the BOV in there( whats a turbo without a BOV
Image
) then i will consider it. So the LED wont light huh. How is the LED wired? Just wanna know for sure that it wont malfunction. What the hell hapened to ZXsith's car?

And as far as distribution to all cylinders, how well does the 5th injector do that? We all know #3 is the weakest cylinder and the people that broke the rods were in that cylinder, what if hte 5th injector is starving that cylinder more than others? I rememver hearing that the design of the intake manifold alows the 5th injector to fire more into 2 cylinders than the other 2 cylinders, could this play a role in why that rod goes???

I just wanna make sure im getting enough fuel.

ALso, how well will it work on 91gas here in cali? I want 0, yes 0 detonation. Even with the intercooler and the 5th injector, will my car detonate on 91octane? Thats the highest i can get around here.

How else can i prevent deto? Colder plugs? Can i get the diablo chip to pull back just a bit of timing from 4000rpm on or something like that? Hmmm...im thinking. If the diablo can do that, i can just have them pull a bit of timing, especially on the top end, sacrifice some hp, but be much much safer. Plus colder plugs should help out also.

WIll geting the SRT fuel rail help a bit with the stock injectors? Any help to get more fuel in would help, even just a bit more.
 
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>What the hell hapened to ZXsith's car? <hr></blockquote>
You post in this forum more than I do I think... -read- some of the threads. You've asked me before and I pointed to this thread. The light was not coming on (never did and the instructions note not to proceed until you can get it to work), and AF gauge was not reading full rich like it should have been. Car went lean, detonated, kabloom.
Image

Unfortunately, I can't upload pics right now (or I'd take a better one). But see on the boost gauge. On the left of the boost gauge is a LED. It lights up bright green pointing at your head at about 3K rpm as insurance (so you know the 5th injector is actually firing). You can use any LED you like, and can include one of those hyper-bright shift light LEDs (or like those one's you put on your key chain that work like a flashlight) if you want a SUPER bright light that will blind you at night.
Image
Or you could even hook up a whole bunch of LEDs and mount them in a circle around the gauge to all light up together (one is enough... but just making a point).

If you want to be doubly safe, get yourself an A/F gauge (colored). It should read full rich with the green LED (can mount that next to it if you want as a tripple check) at WOT.

The 5th injector isn't ideal for those going track racing and lapping continuously... but if your concern is just about worrying if the injector works for the street... the LED function makes it fool proof (you don't have to stare at it to know its either on or not on).

[ 02-10-2002: Message edited by: Ducman69 ]</p>
 
I am not sure if this has beemn covered or not, but hear me out.

Is there a way to just get the computer to use the 42's "Like stock." Through whatever calibration needs to be done in the computer. I know that myself and the rest of us with the AC kit will never get more than 10PSI of boost so in essence we do not need(I think) hours on the dyno to get the ignition map taken care of.
Am I right here??

Can't we just get the injectors, the Pro-M, and have the computer killed of the "Learning Mode", that way it thinks we have larger injectors?
Image


This is why I like my Mitsu...
 
61 - 80 of 168 Posts