Do Green Stuff suck?

P-51 · Apr 1, 2001

Ok, this gonna open a big can of worms, but I had to do it.

I was talking to some racing friends about brake pads and the discussion led to some interesting things.

They started off by saying that EBC Greenstuff pads are not good because they were made before modern carbon based pads. I think they are metallic based, or even worse.

The material they use to make the pads is pretty old technology. Since it is not carbon based, that is why they do not dust much.

The fact that the stock pads dust so much could be indication that they are carbon based, and therefore of superior performance than the Greenstuffs.

In summary, if you get Greenstuff to eliminate the dirty wheels, fine. But if you are buying them for performance, I think you could be wasting your money.

I'm going to wait for a better, more advanced pad is available like Hawk pads. Or look into the Mintex 1144 which BAT sells.

focaljet-1 · Apr 1, 2001

Rob,

I'm doing a "brake upgrade" in the next couple of weeks.

Green Stuff pads
EBC turbo grooved rotors
BAT steel braided lines
Motul brake fluid

I'll let you know how it goes. And I am a very "late braker" in corners so I'll know if the set up is better or not

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If you have any questions or comments about Focaljet please email me wrcfan@focaljet.com

strongtower · Apr 1, 2001

P51,
having had EBC green stuff pads on now for about 20000 miles, i will say this. if someone were to switch me back to my stock pads without me knowing it.... i wouldn't be able to tell! (except for the dust issue). Green Stuff are KEVLAR based, not metallic. my next move would be for either the EBC Red Stuff (carbon based) or the Mintex or similar brand/quality.

the kevlar of the Green Stuff would "lead me to believe" that they would hold up better to fading than stock, but i seldom get in a situation where that could even be judged... even though i myself am an admitted "late braker" as well as Ron!

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strongtower@usa.net

"Your Focus determines your Reality..."
"I WILL have my vengence...in this life or the next..."
"Brothers...What we do in Life...echoes in Eternity!..."

Kelric · Apr 1, 2001

why would anyone spend $90 on ebc pads when you can get similar (if not better)performance out of a $50 carbon-based pad?

I spent my $70 (back when they were still $70) strictly for the dust. I have 14-spoke Chrome wheels and even with the EBC pads I still don't clean them as often as I should.

Performance wise, I don't race and can't tell any difference in "bite". Looks wise, they are at least 80% better than the stock pads for "dusting".

Kelric · Apr 1, 2001

wrcfan:

don't you have the Motegi "brake-dust" grey wheels? I would think you would get alot better performance out of the Mintex pads from BAT than the EBC pads.....

if you can't really see the dust, why worry about the anti-dusting properties of the EBC?

JMO

Sartre · Apr 1, 2001

As Strongtower said, the EBC are made out of Kevlar, not metalic. I have been abusing my brakes for a while now ever since I changed my suspension, and I "feel" that my breaking has improved quite a bit (bu that may also be due to a stiffer suspension). I guess if the people you talked to were critical of EBC, but didn't know what they were actually made out of, then I would look for an opinion somewhere else. I don't know what else is available for the focus, but the EBC were the best thing out there when I bought mine.

FYI, the EBC brake pads will wear out quicker than stock pads because they are made out of a softer material, Kevlar. The upside of this is that they hardly do any wear on the discs. I am not sure if the carbon ones are just made for racing (real racing). I know that the red EBC pads, made out of carbon I believe, are not good for street. They will perform worse than the stock because they work properly only at high tempatures. I got this information from the company I purcahsed mine from. So if this is true of the EBC reds or yellow carbon pads, then it would probably be true of other carbon pads. Sartre

P-51, by the way, did you ever get the chance to talk to Brice about the turbo kit at FocusParts?

Ducman69 · Apr 1, 2001

Who else uses Kevlar pads? It was new to me when I first read about it here. I'd think that was a pretty new compound, and although I haven't tried them myself, the specs looked pretty good. Now that I think about it though, I bet you its a POS organic pad with Kevlar introduced (since asbestos is illegal now). Who knows...an organic pad with Kevlar might be good, and it looks to be good if their advertised specs are true.

The only ones I knew of in the past were organic (mmm celulose...with Kevlar added is probably a GreenStuff pad), semi or full metalic (what most use...full metalic is very aggressive though), and carbon based metalic. The carbon based metalics are just semi-metalics with carbon added so that they act like full metalics at high temps, but not good enough yet. What P-51 needs are some carbon carbon pads though!

You know...for us with those carbon fiber rotors and pads hehehe!

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00 Ford ZX3 / 96 Ford Cobra
90 Yam FJ1200/ 85 Yam RZ350 / 84 Yam RZ350
Engine Forum Moderator -Chris-

arskiker · Apr 1, 2001

I could get C-C pads and rotors made if you want!

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Original Club Focus Member
Black 5-spd ZX3
Mech Eng
Formula SAE

Ground Control 450's(Pending!), Eibach F/R Anti-Rollers, B&M, Momo aluminum sport, Ractive, Esslinger UD pulley

focaljet-1 · Apr 1, 2001

From EBC's web site

Features and Benefits of Greenstuff:
upgrades brake performance by 30-50%, friction co-efficient of 0.46µ
excellent initial bite resulting in instant response - no warm-up needed
class-leading fade resistance on the street - heat stable to a blistering 550ºC
extremely low disc abrasion - due to high Kevlar content
low dust formula, great for alloys - due to zero carbon content
low vibration - smooth operation

Features and Benefits of Redstuff:
friction co-efficient starting at 0.3µ and rising to 0.33µ once warm
medium initial bite with friction steadily increasing with heat
heat stable to an incredible 750ºC
low disc abrasion

Features and Benefits of Yellowstuff:
average friction co-efficient of 0.34µ
highest pad life of the EBC range
heat stable to 900ºC
low disc abrasion

So, it's not so much about "bite" per se, to me it's more about fade resistance. The Kevlar allows the pads to operate at a higher temp. I have experienced brake fade driving on the street and this is what I'm trying to correct. The Focus seems to brake fairly well. I don't really even mind the read drums be cause in a FWD they are just sort of along for the ride. I always complain of a "soft" pedal in most of the cars I've owned and I'm hoping to fix that a bit with the SS braided lines and the Motul. We'll see

If the Green Stuffs don't meet my expectations then I will try something different.

The Red Stuffs would be fine if you remember they need to get some heat in them before you banzai it.

The Yellows just would not be able to effectively get up to temp in a street application to be ever considered.

I agree there are more manufacturers out there but some of you act as if EBC doesn't know what they are doing. I am very familiar with them from motorcycles and they have a good racing history there.

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If you have any questions or comments about Focaljet please email me wrcfan@focaljet.com

[This message has been edited by wrcfan (edited 04-01-2001).]

Sartre · Apr 1, 2001

By the way, Kevlar application in brake pads is not old school technology. It is fairly new. Also, the Green pads did get rid of the squeeky braking.

Ducman69 · Apr 2, 2001

Argh, I just typed a response and accidentally closed the window, so I'll try to keep this short.

WRCfan, I agree from their specs, they look spot on to our vehicles weight and general spirited driving.

They could be considered old school if you look at them as organic pads (which I think they are...except for the fact that they don't dust much...hmmm) as their root composition, with Kevlar added to them to improve their fade resistance at high temps (just like asbestos was in the past). If they work though, who cares? Just compare specs to specs.

I think full metallic pads are better than carbon metallics (again just reading specs), even if added carbon to a semi-metallic pad is a new idea. And yes Rob, that was sort of in response to: "I think they are metallic based, or even worse." What's wrong with metallic pads, other than perhaps rotor wear? Most carbon metallics, as the name implies, have metals in them as well (but are only considered semi-metallics).

I don't think anyone knows exactly what causes squeaky brakes. I think there are several factors involved including parts tolerance working together, and switching out your pads usually gets rid of it. Attributing the Greenstuff pads to that as a cure is sort of misleading.

Oh yeah...Rob, I've read about the Mintex pads. My roommate's SVT Contour is sporting Mintex pads. I think he has the AF pads though if I remember correctly (he's out right now dammit) and I am happy with the way they feel and bite, although I haven't gotten his brakes really hot before. Not sure how the 1144s are different, or if he actually has those. Are the 1144s race compound?

OK, I tried to respond to everybody...raise your hand if I left you out.

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00 Ford ZX3 / 96 Ford Cobra
90 Yam FJ1200/ 85 Yam RZ350 / 84 Yam RZ350
Engine Forum Moderator -Chris-

P-51 · Apr 2, 2001

I'm not up on pads much, I'm just going by what the people I trust tell me. Sartre, you don't know these guys, so I'll just ignore that comment. They didn't say they were metallic, they just said they were not good.

Look guys, I'm not trying to bag on your stuff... just letting people know that Greenstuff may not be an improvement over stock. Strongtower even backs that up. If they maintain stock braking levels while reducing dust then it's great for street drivers. I'm just letting people know it's not a "performance upgrade".

Ducman69 · Apr 2, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I'm just letting people know it's not a "performance upgrade".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well...I don't believe strongtower races (correct me if I'm wrong), and I doubt the friction coefficient of our stock "crappy" pads are really all that bad at lower temps. We do stop in 125 feet on them. The biggest difference between $30 pads and $60 pads is how they perform and modulate at elevated temps. You'll even notice that "race compound" expensive carbon base pads have a low cf at street temps, but this doesn't mean they "suck".

I don't have these pads, so there is no reason for me to defend them either way. However, you may know these guys really well and respect them...but I don't. So accepting something because someone I do respect and know knows somebody who said they were bad, is stretching it for me. Now there are two people I have to trust w/o question.

I agree that carbon based semi-metalics are good...not getting at that. But can you ask them a little more details on their opinion and WHY they came to the conclusion that Green Stuffs aren't (other than that they aren't carbon based)? You...or well they...might be right, but I'm sure if I posted here that Monza exhausts are bad because someone I trust told me so w/o any reason WHY I think this wouldn't sit with you either, even if it turned out to be true.

BTW Strong...how do you know that their "Redstuff Semi-metalics" are carbon based? Did you ask, because its not stated on their site, although you are more than likely right considering the price and operating range. If I were getting EBC stuff I would get the GreenStuff pads as it looks like a better operating temp range (cold-500) and friction coefficient (.46u...better than the redstuff .3 cold/.33warm) for our car than the red or yellow. They must use a pretty good mix in their compound to get .46, so I'm not complaining as long as my rotors last more than a couple weeks.

BTW, we can't forget the drums either when upgrading pads, and Mintex does have some performance shoes: http://www.mintex.co.uk/frm/index.htm

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00 Ford ZX3 / 96 Ford Cobra
90 Yam FJ1200/ 85 Yam RZ350 / 84 Yam RZ350
Engine Forum Moderator -Chris-

Chris F · Apr 2, 2001

I put a set of EBC greens on before I left on vacation. I havent really put them to trial yet other then breaking them in. During the breakin I did stops from 40-60-80-100-120-140 and 160-0 (160kph = 100mph) and was still able to lock up the tires from 160. Of cousre being able to lock up the stock tires on fairly cold ground isnt much of a feat but they did feel strong throughout the whole test and showed no idication of fading.

Aside from that I cant comment on them all that much yet. To me they feel like they have a weaker initial "bite" (probably need to come up to temp a bit) but when you stick your foot in it they SEEM to haul the car down faster then the stock pads could manage.

I WILL be putting them to the test at the auto-x and track this summer so we shall see.....

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Chris Feist
Black 00' ZX3 5spd
Mods Dyno Chart

strongtower · Apr 2, 2001

Ducman,
you are correct sir. i do not race.... on a track

. as for the "metallic" comment. i think i READ that in their SCC ad, but it might have been on some other reseller's website. i will check and get back to you with the straight skinny. trust me on this though: I ONLY BOUGHT MINE TO REDUCE BRAKE DUSTING. i wouldn't know brake fade ( i think...) if it came up and bit me on the butt!

------------------
strongtower@usa.net

"Your Focus determines your Reality..."
"I WILL have my vengence...in this life or the next..."
"Brothers...What we do in Life...echoes in Eternity!..."

Ducman69 · Apr 2, 2001

This is sortof off topic...but I was under the impression that propper pad break in was achieved by dragging the brakes at 30mph for a set time period (short), and then letting them cool by driving and repeating. Then only after the surfaces were properly mated would one go hard on the brakes. Otherwise you run the risk of glazing them.

Sartre · Apr 2, 2001

P-51,

I was a bit surprised to read your comments. I think of you as one of the brighter people here, and you have contributed a great deal. But your reasoning on this topic is amatuer. I am from Detroit, so excuse me if I am a little blunt.

StrongTower may not "feel" a difference between EBC and stock, but is there indeed a difference? No offense to StrongTower (hey, I took your advice on Kuhmos and I love them -- thanks), but he did not test them. So you shouldn't back up your "Do Green Stuff suck?" question based on what strongtower said: "having had EBC green stuff pads on now for about 20000 miles, i will say this. if someone were to switch me back to my stock pads without me knowing it.... i wouldn't be able to tell!"

The point is that he never tested them, and after 20,000 miles, and no one ever changed his brakes back to stock, I dare say that he doesn't even remember how his stock ones performed or felt.

As far as trusting your guys, who cares really. I don't. period. That was not the point of what I was trying to get accross.

Anyway, I don't want to get into a pissing match over this because you contribute a lot to FocalJet. I'll tell what, if you want to "feel" how the EBC's perform, you can test them out in my car. I work near downtown detroit, and can easily meet you over in Windsor. If you think they suck, you can tell me. No big deal because I bought them mostly for the dust prevention. Adn they don't squeek like the stock ones. Take me up on this, and you may be one of the lucky few who has driven on a H&R "Coilover" suspension.

Also I would be interested in knowing some of the mods you have done on your car.

Thanks, Sartre

Chris F · Apr 2, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ducman69:
This is sortof off topic...but I was under the impression that propper pad break in was achieved by dragging the brakes at 30mph for a set time period (short), and then letting them cool by driving and repeating. Then only after the surfaces were properly mated would one go hard on the brakes. Otherwise you run the risk of glazing them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Im told there are various ways to go about breaking in pads. Im not sure which is best, I picked one and went with it. Basically they all end up being close to the same deal. You progressivly bring them up to temperature with some heavy braking for a couple minutes and then let them sit and cool......

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Chris Feist
Black 00' ZX3 5spd
Mods Dyno Chart

Chris F · Apr 2, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Sartre:
P-51,

Anyway, I don't want to get into a pissing match over this because you contribute a lot to FocalJet. I'll tell what, if you want to "feel" how the EBC's perform, you can test them out in my car. I work near downtown detroit, and can easily meet you over in Windsor. If you think they suck, you can tell me. No big deal because I bought them mostly for the dust prevention. Adn they don't squeek like the stock ones. Take me up on this, and you may be one of the lucky few who has driven on a H&R "Coilover" suspension.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heh, he tossed my car around an empty parking lot for a few minutes last time he was here.

Might be different with Z rated rubber though who knows, theres still *#$%$%ING snow on the ground here....

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Chris Feist
Black 00' ZX3 5spd
Mods Dyno Chart

P-51 · Apr 2, 2001

Sartre, Ducman:

I can understand that you don't can't just believe my 2nd hand news. I'll try to get some more info from them, more of their reasoning. Just suffice it to say, these guys are hard core. I'll try to get their understanding. (Chris F: You'll probably see this as I know you're on the list now).

I think the break in proceedures are different with every pad. You must follow the manufacturer's recommended proceedure.

I know when I put a Set of Hawks on my Mustang, the proceedure was essentially 'go out and hammer them till they fade, then let them rest'.

Do Green Stuff suck?

P-51

focaljet-1

strongtower

Kelric

Kelric

Sartre

Ducman69

arskiker

focaljet-1

Sartre

Ducman69

P-51

Ducman69

Chris F

strongtower

Ducman69

Sartre

Chris F

Chris F

P-51

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