Turbo Hype

1320motorsport · May 29, 2001

With only moderatly tunning my focus with the pectel unit at 6 psi , intercooled, downpipe (no cat) stock fex section, and thirteen twenty exhaust we only made 175 to the wheels so whats that like 200 or something at the motor. We have done some testing on the Wings west car when we installed the kit and were able to get something like 260 but only able to sustain it unsafely for a few seconds. You have to pull timming and flood the fuel to get there with the stock ecu and mas. See the stock MAS runs out of calculations at 2 psi, so without upgrading the MAS the computer can't even read high enought to know what to do. Well we went the additional injector route on the wings west car and a map sensor feeding info to the MSD unit. With this the MAS maxes out and the car goes semi into safe mod but with the MSD unit we were able to counter act it somewhat. All these high HP rateings I hear seem funny to me. Now given we did tune my rally car for reliability on stock internals but even with the wings west car it too alot of time on the dyno witch would cost a customer alot of money, in order to get high HP safely. Wings West has yet to blow up there motor, but there car is also probably a trailer queen. So question when people say they made X amount of HP with there turbo kit was this just bolting it up and driving away like the many civic turbo kits on the market or was this with tonz of piggy back computers or stand alone engine managment systems like in my focus (Pectel). Also I would be very interested to see these 230 HP street focus with just bolt on parts. I would invite them to my dyno for a few runs. We use the Dyno at F-max a DynoPac, a true HP rating cause the hubs are attached to the dyno, not a rolling chassis dyno where the correction factor is 6HP + or -. Thanks, I'm not being a cynic here, cause if this is true there is bolt up turbo kits that make this huge HP increase I would love to learn more about the technilogy involved. So no hate letter I'm just trying to learn like the rest of the world. thanks for your time I know this was long. ooh to check out my focus go to www.1320motorsport.com

[This message has been edited by 1320motorsport (edited 05-28-2001).]

Guest · May 29, 2001

Hey George, 175 whp @ 6psi is real good. In all the testing with that motor, you are right in range of HP figures. If you are still using the returnless fuel system and need alittle more range in your fuel mapping, I can tell you how to raise the fuel pressure easily on it. You know my number. Jon

econorocketZX3 · May 29, 2001

At around 6.5psi my kit made 205hp at the wheels at about 5200rpm before the MAS voltage pegged and shut down the motor. No intercooler, stock ignition, stock ecu, xtra injector, and a Haltec EIC. Is there a fix to this? I saw that the FR200 uses a '99 Cobra MAS. How hard would it be to wire it up to a Focus? What are my other options. I'm really hoping to have rods and pistons by the end of the year but they aren't going to do me any good if I can't go over 5psi without the MAS screwing it all up.

------------------
'00 Green ZX3
Focussport over the crossmember pipe, cat-back, chrome stress bar and plug wires. Esslinger underdrive pulley, adjustable cam gears. Superchip. Garret T3/T4 turbo kit. Eibach Sportline Springs. APC Clear Corners. PIAA's everywhere. BBK Throttle Body. Wings West lower wing. Razzi upper wing. 17x7.5" Konig Toxxins w/205-40-17 Yokohama Paradas

[This message has been edited by econorocketZX3 (edited 05-28-2001).]

1320motorsport · May 29, 2001

Jon is that you, haha whats up. No we completely replaced the whole fuel system, made a fuel rail and running the high impedance bosch injectors. James at F-max had a feild day on his dyno. THe fuel system is pumping plenty we have a high output porsche turbo fuel pump with -8 lines. Yes I know -6 is all we need but goodrich sent the wrong lines so we had to use it. Hey it looks cool with the -8 line haha. we haven't yet opened up the exhaust. I plan on runnign a custom exhaust due to the lack of rules in SCCA pertaining to ehxausts. Also we only rom tuned the ECU ones, he only had 3 hours to tune the ECU we have our race motor coming in a month and it's been built for 500 hp but we plan on only running 275 for most rallies and the laughlin race we plan on 300. this will improve the longevity of the motor never really maxing the HP to it's full potential. Can't really put more than 300 to the wheels in a SCCA Rally car especially 2wd. thanks Jon hey come by sometime to help us tune the puppy. We just got a PI dash and dattaloging unit so we have tons of channels to datalog anything.

Chris F · May 29, 2001

So how does this bode for those of us looking to buy a reliable turbo kit for our cars?

Fuel system conversions arent cheap. Neither is the Pectel ECU. Sounds like you have about 5-6K in parts alone going on in your engine bay, nevermind the install and tuning time...

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Chris Feist
Black 00' ZX3 5spd
Mods Dyno Chart
"No Fear?..... Not Fast Enough!"

1320motorsport · May 29, 2001

what this means is you have it right on the money. Right now there isn't a cost effective way to boost reliably as far as I know. I know there are some piggy back computers that are relativly inexpencive. The first if a MSD fueler computer due to arrive in a few months, this new product will give you the ability to control up to 4 additional injectors as well as ignition timing. But you need to buy two tach adaptors for the focus and a MSD DIS2 as well to make this thing work. The computer software is loaded via a labtop computer to the brain. Once set it is left alone and u can boost safely. Now it's not cost effective to go this route in a kit persay and also not just joe shmo can install and tune it. The route most companies are going is a ecu upgrade, upgrade the MAF and possibaly upgrade injectors. Third way and again it's not easy to tune is a simple additional injector controler and a upgraded MAF. the stock MAF when tested runs out of fuel map after 2-3psi. This is what I have taken from the mix of info I get from differn't companies, our own research and experience. Jon your a little more experienced at this than me maybe you can offer a few other solutions. I guess what it all comes down to is what can a company throw into a box and know the customer won't sue them cause it will blow up there motor. No company wants a name for building kits that blows up cars so they want to make sure it's ALMOST idiot proof.

enemy · May 29, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>the stock MAF when tested runs out of fuel map after 2-3psi. [/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you mean the ECU can no longer interpret the signal the MAF is sending, or the MAF itself is the culprit? If the problem is with the ECU, why not just use a piggyback unit like the pectel, and higher flow injectors to compensate for the stock ECU's lack of flexibility? How much is the pectel T2, or whatever unit you used?

1320motorsport · May 29, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by enemy:
Do you mean the ECU can no longer interpret the signal the MAF is sending, or the MAF itself is the culprit? If the problem is with the ECU, why not just use a piggyback unit like the pectel, and higher flow injectors to compensate for the stock ECU's lack of flexibility? How much is the pectel T2, or whatever unit you used?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Both, I belive it is that the voltage range is the same but the calibrations are differen't. For example for one MAF at lets say to make it easy at 1volt it's 10cfm and 12 volts its 100 cfm, while the bigger MAF is 1volt is 10 cfm and 12 volts is 300 cfm. So if you plug the bigger MAF into your ecu it still see's the same voltage but now when 300 cfm is flowing and the ecu see that 12 volts it thinks only 100 cfm is flowing. This will cause the engine to lean out, but if you ad larger injectors then it works the same. See the injectos follow the voltage rule as well the ECU may say ope to 50% duty cycle and if the injector is larger then at 50% it will flow more fuel than the smaller injector. The ECU still sends the same signal to the larger injector that it sent to the smaller injector but now it flows more fuel. Like this lets say the stock injector flows 55mil at 50% and the aftermarket flows 75mil at 50%. this way aftermarket tuners can upgrade to a specific size injector in there kit to go along with the upgraded MAF. There is alot of hard work put into this tunning process and somethimes it just doesn't work out right. Thats why this is only one of many solutions tunners try. Now I may be a little off but the concept is still the same. And again Jon may be able to better explaine this. The pectel unit is definatly the best solution if you have the money for the unit. It uses a 2 or 3 bar MAP sensor instead of the MAF so it take readings from the Intake manifold after the turbo not befor. There are many turbo focus these days just most of them run the pectel unit. The motor is strong enough to boost so the motor isn't the concern. Even thought the head doesn't flow much air and limits HP output it's something that will be solved when there are more people needing that much flow.

Chris F · May 29, 2001

See thats the problem....

I really hope companies dont go halfassed in thier kits.

Ive read about tons of Honda turbo installs that went wrong because of either poor tuning or el cheapo parts. The vast majority of the problems tend to be fuel related emphasizing the importance of proper fuel management. The usual result is blown internals....

I dont want something that will hold just enough for a couple passes down the drag strip. I want something I could drive 10 consecutive laps of the Nurnburgring in and then do a couple more just for shits and giggles! If that kind of reliability costs $5K in parts to acheive then fine, I understand. I would however like someone else to do the engineering for me.....
I mean companies DO want to make money right?

Guess I had better start saving for that Pectel....

------------------
Chris Feist
Black 00' ZX3 5spd
Mods Dyno Chart
"No Fear?..... Not Fast Enough!"

[This message has been edited by Chris F (edited 05-29-2001).]

1320motorsport · May 29, 2001

Yes proper engine managment is the key. But engines don't blow on those honda kits due to company errror or cheapo parts USUALLY. Usually it's the customer taking what the company has told them about there kit and tossed it and the manual out the window. Most people who pay for a turbo kit at first love it. they drive around all day boosting and loving the power. But it's not enough, and for some reason or another even thought the companies tell them the safe boost levels they have to turn up the boost that one day to race some camero. It's like the customer didn't even read the manual and they turn up the boost too high and blow there motor. See most of the time when I get turbo cars in my shop with blown motors it's cause the customer tried to get a couple free hp by doing some modification they read about in some chat room or bulliten board. I have been building turbo systems for a long time and tuning street cars just as long and if only one thing i can tell you befor you buy a turbo system is be prepaired to learn. If you just rely on the shop to set it up and you just have to drive away then don't ever touch your turbo system. If you want to be a part of the tuning process then LEARN as much as you can first. Now as far as reliability the focus is totaly reliable under boost, I boost 7 lbs and race in the hot deaserts at pek boost for hours. My motor has shown no sign of fatuge. With the Thirteen Twenty Motorsport turbo kit thought it is manditory to run a Pectel engine managment system. And for a system of this caliber your getting alot of bang for your buck. Turbo kits are in stock and ready to boost.

econorocketZX3 · May 30, 2001

How much is the Pectel and where can I get it? Where are these modified MAS's? My only solution to my problem was to get a Deltagate with the 3-5lb spring in it (since there isn't anything lower than a .4 bar spring for the Tial I already had).
1320, is there a number where I can reach you at to discuss my options? Thanks

1320motorsport · May 30, 2001

Pectel is 2,450 witch is a big steal when u consider the competition. This is a plug-n-play system, meaning no installation charges, a normal stand alone can run up to 1,500 just for the installation. I run this unit in my car and you can just plug it in and drive away. Yes anyone can call the shop line at (760) 736-4467 my name is george so ask for me.

econorocketZX3 · May 30, 2001

Holy crap! Is there something I can do for around $500-600? That is way too much for me right now since I am trying to save up for rods and pistons.

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'00 Green ZX3
Focussport over the crossmember pipe, cat-back, chrome stress bar and plug wires. Esslinger underdrive pulley, adjustable cam gears. Superchip. Garret T3/T4 turbo kit. Eibach Sportline Springs. APC Clear Corners. PIAA's everywhere. Focus Central Throttle Body. Wings West wing. 17x7.5" Konig Toxxins w/205-40-17 Yokohama Paradas

Dave Inall · May 30, 2001

1320Motorsport: with your wheel power comparisons, I think you are making a fairly fundemental mistake. You are comparing numbers from your very professional NZ made piece of equipment, with the widely used joke known as Dynojets. I suspect that if you ran your vehicle on one yourself, you would obtain similar or even superior numbers, assuming that ambient conditions are close, Dave

Jays2000ZX3 · May 30, 2001

1320-- I have been reading EVERYTHING I can about Turboing my Focus, and I keep reading stuff and people contradicting each other. You seem to know HELLA LOTS. So I am asking oyu this, and hopefully you can help me out!

I want to turbo my Focus. I was going to Use a 14b Turbo, BOV and Intercooler from a 1st Gen DSM(EAgle Talon) I don't know if you have that in the US??

Then I read your post on how I need a new MAF and ECU and extra injector and blah blah blah.

I only want about 6psi of boost with stock internals, I would get a custom made manifold and exhaust.

Now, what do I need? I suspect new fuel pump, bigger injectors? I was thinking just a Chip, like the Diablo, and get a custom program done for the Turbo application? Will I need the new MAF? If so, is there one off of another car that I can use?

Where can I get info on your kit? Or any Focus Turbo information on the net? I've looked, but there ain't much out there.

Any info here is GREATLY appreciated. I am only asking this, because I can read and read, but get no where since people are contradicting all the time!

Thanks,

Regards,

Jay

1320motorsport · May 30, 2001

If I told you all of our turbo secrets then I would never sell a turbo kit. Well lets just say if it was as easy as simple modifications then the market would be flooded but its not and some of the best in the industry are working on it and yet haven't found a safe cheap solution. As far as my turbo kit it comes with turbo, manifold, downpipe (uses stock cat), Intercooler piping, front mount intercooler, hks bov and Tial Wastegate. Now with my kit I require you to purchase the PECTEL unit so it's not going to be the cheapest kit out there but I have it here in stock and ready to be bolted up.

frios · May 31, 2001

Now I know this might change the subject just a bit, but I notice that almost all the turbo Foci out there seemed to be tied to the Pectel for fuel management. Thou I don't believe the Pectel is a bad system, I do believe that we shouldn't use it because every one else does. Thou the MAF is much better flowing than say a flap door-style sensor used in other cars, I'm not sure why people don't just yank everything out, run a speed-density system and a more robust fuel management system. Do you guys know what I mean? I'm not trying to start any flames, but I think Jon would agree with me on how we can employ other systems. I know this is not the same, but I ran DFI on a Civic when that was the "in" thing, and also questioned wether or not that was the best system for my application, and not just because everybody else was using it, and knew how to tune with it. Is it because some want to keep with the stock layout, with minimal work, or do you guys believe this IS the system to use. Let me know why you think the way you do. Just my questions.

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Freddie

1320motorsport · May 31, 2001

This is a really easy question to answer. OK Ford owns PI research a technology company that makes Dash units for everything from fomula one cars to WRC rally cars. Now I hope I get this right. But the segment of Ford that owns PI research then bought Pectel. So I think it goes Ford owns PI research and PI research owns Pectel. Now Ford owns the company but Ford doesn't run the company but when Ford does Race vehicle guess what companies get the job. Well The president of pectel desiged all the engine managment systems for the WRC ford Focus teams as well and the Z-tech Powerd race cars in europe and many other systems for ford racing application. Well They took the technology from this and made a detuned ecu from there T6 witch the Rally Car runs. The T2 unit has less adjustments than the T6 but how many street cars need to tune there six speed sequential gear box to engine speed. Well Pectel took all the great things they learned from being the ONLY system provider for the Ford Racing Program and shoved it into a box and made it plug-n-play. The T2 will work on any car but the T2 itself, not just the wiring harness, was specificaly designed around the z-tech motor. I use the T2 for my rally car and when people like Jame at F-max and Javier from JG engine dynamics looked at what I got for the money I paid they were VERY impressed with the system. So much so they are now dealers. Next year our rally team will step up to the T6 and yes even over any of there competition it is a very amazing box.

Red ZX3 · May 31, 2001

1320 motorsports,
if im not mistaken, not only did ford dump over 7 million into the technology that went into the pectel units, but toyota (trd) also dumped in an additional 5 to 10 million to develope the unit for their indy motors...or so i was told... so with all that money that was dumped in by the big guys only goes to show that this is worth its weight in gold...
ill find out soon enough what its like to run with the big boys, for i am getting a t2 also

man all these people with turbos, am i going to be the only one running the sc with the pectel??
i feel so alone..

lol

[This message has been edited by Red ZX3 (edited 05-30-2001).]

1320motorsport · May 31, 2001

Yea thats probably true, cause I always see TRD harnesses at pectel and the president is always on the dyno at TRD. Also new word is the harnesses won't be in anytime soon for pectel units, I do have one left in stock but untill Pectel gets the harness in stock I will only sell this unit to a local racer who I can help out. I need more local turbo cars to play with.

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