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SuperSprint Muffler Arrived :((((((((

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Cem Aygun

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Finally my SuperSprint muffler arrived
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And what I got by spending $250 just for a muffler? Please read on...

Well, I have read all the posts about backpressure vs. exhaust velocity. It all seemed reasonable to me untill I had my custom exhaust built according to these principles.

Now I am doomed and I really don't know why
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According to posts at the forum, you don't need backpressure. You just need the gasses flow at a high speed. So you should get a system that is as smooth as possible, with the least obstruction possible and a resonable pipe diameter to allow the gass flow at high speed.

I had built up my car with perfect low-end torque (that's the way I like it)up to now.

To build the low obstruction, high speed flow exhaust, I used stock sized piping (51 mm), removed all the mufflers and the cat (in fact it was removed before and I had no low-end problems). Put in a tubular direct pass honda muffler in the middle to compansate for the cat, and a Supersprint direct-pass Focus muffler at the end.

The car runned unbeliavably crappy. I believe lost about 15Hp which was much more noticabe at the low end (Low end was almost worse than stock)Don't have dynos to prove, but I was shocked.
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Then I had the stock muffler welded back in with the Supersprint after that. Now I have "worse than before" low end, but a nice high end (although increase is not very noticable)good sound (the rattling I had with my stock exhaust and no-cat setup is gone)

Car is really silent at low end and roars nicely if you go WOT.

But this was not what I expected. I was hoping for some noticable gains at the upper end at least. I am really disappointed.
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Any suggestions?
 
#2 ·
Put a FS shorti or Race header. If you go with the shorti then get a random tech cat and then do a borla S/S catback. I have the Borla catback and I noticed a lot of pickup all the way through my powerband. My issues with low end are as long as I get off the line im doin fine. I have raced cars with way more power and with an intake and exhaust I have either won or kept up. By buddies 5.0 mustang which runs very strong doesnt run off and leave me he runs about a second and a half faster. He has 250 hp, so thats my setup and I have no problems.
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#4 ·
Stock piping is actually 1.75" (~45mm) from my measurements, but 2" shouldn't matter. Now you replaced part of the stock piping with crushbent 2" piping? Or just short segments that hook to the mufflers?

Let me recap though: You already removed your cat.converter before (assume you used the Focus Central offroad pipe in its place), and it was fine. No apparent increase in power or problem. On motorcycles, the increase w/o a cat-converter is usually only 1-2hp. For a car you might pick up 3hp, so its no surprise you didn't feel anything.

There is only one muffler, and a resonator chamber at the tail of the exhaust. I assume you mean that one. So you removed both of those.

So you ended up replacing one muffler with two mufflers (stock muffler removed and Honda muffler and Supersprint installed). You didn't get it dynoed, but we'll assume there was a massive problem. From what I've read, resetting the ECU is unneccesary. You then welded back in the stock muffler inplace of the Honda muffler, and now have a supersprint muffler in place of the resonator chamber.

It sounds like you likely have more backpressure in your exhaust than before. W/o a dyno or actually seeing what was done, its hard to say. Motorcycles have 'slip on' cans which basically just replace the muffler element with a small glasspack... its loud but usually power increases across the board. I picked up 8ftlbs and 11hp on my FJ (but thats because stock is REAALLY restrictive... and heavy hehe).

Could you take a picture of what you did, and perhaps we can figure out where the fault is. Kinda hard to visualize. Or you could draw a text diagram:

BEFORE:
Engine -->FC offroad pipe -->muffler -->mandrel bent pipe -->resonator

AFTER:
Engine -->FC offroad pipe -->Honda muffler -->crush bent pipe -->SS muffler

AFTER #2:
Engine -->FC offroad pipe -->Stock muffler -->crush bent pipe -->SS muffler

Is that right at all?
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Discussion starter · #5 ·
Thanks for the info man. I re-read my post after seeing your reply and I now see that it is a bit messed up :) So here comes the situation:

Before:
Stock Header-->Custom Crush-bent Pipe (with home made MIL eliminator)-->Stock Mufller-->Stock resonator

This setup had perfect power but stock muffler could not handle the high flow and rattled a lot

First Trial:
Stock Header-->Custom Crush-bent Pipe-->Direct flow honda muffler-->straight pipe in the place of the stock muffler-->SuperSprint Muffler in the place of the stock resonator

This setup sucked big time. It was awful. There was too much noise (it had a good tone though, even a BMW M3 tried to race me - most probably he thought my car had turbo)

Now:
Stock Header-->Custom Crush-bent Pipe-->Direct flow honda muffler-->stock muffler-->SuperSprint Muffler in the place of the stock resonator

The car sound perfect. It is almost completely silent up to 3000-3500 RPM. Has a nice roar.Got no noticable top-end gain, but noticable low end loss...

Hope I can find a better solution...

By the way, my frineds at the tuning company suggested that the system was way too open for a NA car as all the mufflers I used are direct flow (no obstuction in the flow path)and they turned out to be right (I mean with my first trial)

Any suggestions?
 
#6 ·
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by BANDIT:
Now you know why there is a lot of testing & research that go into a good exhaust system.<hr></blockquote>


word
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i still love my bosal
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hey bandit: I bought some of this special metal polish, mothers stuff. I worked on that tip/muffler for like 1 hour or so, polishing and buffing and like 10 times over...i swear, its a freaking mirror now, i wake up in the morning, and shave under my car
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Its better than chrome. Sure it takes a while, and your arms go numb after a while, but you should just see the tip/canister now...its amazing looking, people behind me crash there cars cause the bling bling shine blinds em man...its great

[ 02-05-2002: Message edited by: nazthug ]</p>
 
Discussion starter · #7 ·
Well guys, I am starting to think that cat (or the lack of it) makes the big difference here. Because SuperSprint guys also recommended me to remove the stock resonator and the muffler and put in the SS muffler (the way I tried first).

They have done this many times had no problems. But they always do this on cars with cats. (Not many people can replace the cat for Foci down here, as they don't know how to build MIL eliminators and trigger the CEL)

I had really worked hard for my cat replacement pipe. It was built with two smooth 45 degree turns instead of a sharp 90 like the stock cat. It was bent as smooth a possible to minimize the narrowing at turns. So I assume I have my exhaust gasses storming past it.

By the way, I still have the stock flex-pipe. But I am afraid to change it for a better one after what happened.

And one last thing you might find interesting: Our (Euro Foci) stock exhaust piping is 2", not 1.75 (it is 51 mm)

[ 02-06-2002: Message edited by: Cem Aygun ]</p>
 
#8 ·
dude...its awesome, the coating you guys put on there comes out so well, and then some. I could never get this polish out of my borla...i love it. Anyways..talk to u soon
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#9 ·
To give you a comparison to a known, well working exhuast, (my Vibrant), it has a "direct flow" resonator and a "direct flow" muffler. Of course I am still running the cat but I don't think having free flow in your exhaust is hurting you. If you think that's the problem, just block off part of your tail pipe and see if it runs better
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#11 ·
You can look in racing circles. The engines are run with minimal muffling (in some cases none). They have full length pipes, but muffling doesn't contribute to flow. With motorcycles, can swaps are simple and straightforward. They generally pick up power at all rpms. Only with header swaps have I seen actual transformations of the powerband.

You can also look at all the aftermarket pipes. The most power is generally received out of a well sized free flowing exhaust combined with a long-tube race header. You -know- there is less backpressure in a system like this, but naturally the torque curve will look a bit different due to the different header design and larger sized tubing.

We have to assume your cat-eliminator pipe is fine since you ran w/o issue before the installation of all these mufflers. Was it your impression that these 'local guys' were very knowledgable, or shrugging their shoulders and making up excuses? The difference between a GOOD muffler and a crappy one, is that a good muffler is able to muffle WELL while being as free flowing as possible. These mufflers don't seem to be muffling worth a crap (from your description you are running two of them and they don't even compare to the single stock unit) and probably aren't as free-flowing as you think (or at least the piping leading up to them) if you are losing power with those two in place of the stocker. The setup you have now is essentially what you started off with, but replacing one resonator chamber with two mufflers. Not surprising that you lost power as you should be running -more- backpressure now than when you started.

Can you take a picture? Perhaps there piping isn't quite as straight as it could/should be. I'm especially worried about how you snaked thru the rear suspension to fit a muffler there. My recommendation would be to see if you can return these mufflers, cut your losses, and purchase a mandrel bent cat-back system. Or if you have to go crushbent, keep the exhaust routed as straight and smooth as possible with one good quality muffler in place where the stocker was. The Borla is a good example ('cept 2.25" would be better for most).
 
#12 ·
how about buying a real exhaust system? no offense, but they don't spend millions of dollars researching flow for maximum output when they could just have their friends crush bend some ten muffler super exhaust... i agree with Duc, cut your losses and buy a real exhaust system. You seem to be loosing more and more power as you build this thing, it's time to let it go.

Nate
 
#13 ·
heres how you might want to do it....

engine>exhaust manifold>racing pipe>straigh 2'' pipe>muffler(who cares what one as long as its free flowing)

you don't need a resonator unless you want it to be quiet

you don't need to mufflers unless you want it to be very quiet and rob you of power
 
Discussion starter · #14 ·
Well guys, I am preparing a loong post that describes my latest situation in detail. Untill it's ready, I just wanted to answer a few things:

1) I would have rather bought a cat-back system, but where I live (in fact as far as I know generally in Europe) we don't have any "local" cat-back suppliers for the Foci. The best known brands (like Super Sprint and Remus) only sell the muffler that replaces the resonator in the stock system (this is why I bought sth. like that). And as cat-backs are not easily shippable, I don't have too many options, because ordering a full cat back from US would most probably cost me as much as a turbo kit.

2) I really don't know what's wrong with my system, but full direct flow did not work for me. It should have, but it didn't. I'll try to solve things out. And I really want a silent system, not as silent as a BMW, but as silent as a slightly modded Audi. At least the sound should be bearable at 140 km/h as I sometimes travel cross country (1000 km's+) in one day when I go out of the city...

So any help would really be greately appriciated...

Thanks a lot to all you guys...
 
#15 ·
Cem Aygun, I had the Supersprint muffler on my vehicle prior to the current cat-back. I was dissaointed as well with the significant loss in the low RPM's. At that time, I had everything stock with the exception of the Supersprint. I ended returning the the muffler and purschasing a Thermal RD cat-back.
 
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Discussion starter · #16 ·
Well, things are beginning to clear out...

I removed the Honda muffler and got most of my low end back. Mid and high are still bad. And the sound went bad too. Even though it did not get much higher, it became extremeley metallic, and I have lost almost all the base. I algo got some of my rattling back (it happens only at high RPM's though)

As suggested by Ducman69 (thanks a lot man) I seem to have too much backpressure in my system, even though it seems to be a completely open system. And my piping looks like Frankenstein after so much cutting and welding...

By the way, I got some documents from SuperSprint. They recommend another muffler of theirs to be used also, instead of the stock (mid) one. I find that ridiculous, as paying for two would cost much more than a catback.

Most probably I am giving the muffler back on monday, Getting some decent piping (by the way, my stock piping was not 51mm, I measured carefully and it turned out to be 55mm, which is close to 2.16") buying a nice, affordable, high quality muffler and building my own cat back.

Many thanks to everyone that replied. And I am still open to suggestions....
 
#17 ·
i have 00 with jba shorty header evrything else stock in the exhaust except for the rear supersprint muffler (which i paid $140 on ebay brand new) obx strut bar and intake. b&m shifter diablo chip and my car boogies, no problems sounds great
 
#18 ·
If you can find pictures of popular cat-back exhausts... I would just plain rip-off their design.
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I'd avoid the designs that put a muffler by the tailpipe though, as you have to put a sharp 'crink' in the exhaust in order to fit one there (due to the suspension). And just use one good highflow muffler. Make sure its one that is meant to be used by itself (think they use 3/4 absorbtion and one small open chamber for reflection... which is supposed to be better at getting rid of certain resonance frequencies that cause it to 'drone'). Just crap I read a while back, not sure if there is any truth to it as I haven't taken apart any mufflers.

To play with the exhaust note (how high or low pitched it is), I think you can get most of that via the diameter piping that is used and tip design. Bigger piping with a slightly wider tip should give it a lower sound. Wider pipes are also more noisy though from what I've read. 2.25" would be the way I would go if you are replacing everything from the cat. back. Not sure if/how tip design affects the exhaust note specifically though.

Hey, live and learn.
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I nearly screwed up a motorcycle tire trying to figure out how to use this mounting equipemnt (push on pull off... not the other way heheh), and took me 2.5 attempts before I was 100% pleased with my rear floor.
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(now its sssweet)

[ 02-12-2002: Message edited by: Ducman69 ]</p>
 
Discussion starter · #19 ·
Well, as far as I can see, the stock cat is soo restrictive that when you remove it, you put yourself in a situation where most aftermarket equipment becomes useless...

I will get my clean piping done hopefully tomorrow. Than I will play with mufflers to get the ideal "home-made-cat-back"...

Ducman69, thanks again for the info. I didn't know piping effected the pitch of the sound. So this will be my starting point. Allmost all "Foci Specific" mufflers in Europe are tailpipe ones with the tip directly mounted on. They generally have connection pipes that travel upwards onto the suspension and calmp on to the rest of the system there (right above the suspension)So there does not seem to be many options.

By the way, when building up my new piping, I am planning to use factory-bent elbows (they come in various angles and welded onto the system instead of bending a straight pipe)By using them, you get perfect diameter turns but also put more welded joints...

Do you think too many welded points are worse than crush bending the pipe???
 
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Cem Aygun
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