Aerocharger said that they have not decided if they will design a kit for the SVT because the compression ratio is higher they would need to drop the boost level. Thus equaling the same final power output as the stock ZX3 would have with an equvalent turbo. Does anyone know of who will be making a SVT turbo that will keep the SVT above the ZX3s?
Turbo fo SVT
sector4208
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Aerocharger said that they have not decided if they will design a kit for the SVT because the compression ratio is higher they would need to drop the boost level. Thus equaling the same final power output as the stock ZX3 would have with an equvalent turbo. Does anyone know of who will be making a SVT turbo that will keep the SVT above the ZX3s?
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Why don't they just include at thicker head gasket in the kit...or a chip w/ turned-back ignition timing, like F-max does?
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by HatchbackInBlack:
Why don't they just include at thicker head gasket in the kit...or a chip w/ turned-back ignition timing, like F-max does?<hr></blockquote>
Solution #1 is not going to solve the problem. The SVT does have forged cylinders and rods, so it's not about damage so much as it is about deto (which then leads to damage). Even intercooled, I doubt you could safely run much more than 8 PSI at least on pump gas (of course you'd still need a top of the line fuel solution). You could retard timing, but that will probably not be the best solution for a good power curve. I think if you're going to go FI on the SVT, it's going to be either a low boost solution, or lower compression cylinders.
However the cylinders for the ZX-3 are the same size as the SVT (however I think the wrist pins are difference sizes) but their could be a chance that aftermarket ZX-3 cyls will fit the SVT.
[ 03-29-2002: Message edited by: belacyrf ]</p>
Why don't they just include at thicker head gasket in the kit...or a chip w/ turned-back ignition timing, like F-max does?<hr></blockquote>
Solution #1 is not going to solve the problem. The SVT does have forged cylinders and rods, so it's not about damage so much as it is about deto (which then leads to damage). Even intercooled, I doubt you could safely run much more than 8 PSI at least on pump gas (of course you'd still need a top of the line fuel solution). You could retard timing, but that will probably not be the best solution for a good power curve. I think if you're going to go FI on the SVT, it's going to be either a low boost solution, or lower compression cylinders.
However the cylinders for the ZX-3 are the same size as the SVT (however I think the wrist pins are difference sizes) but their could be a chance that aftermarket ZX-3 cyls will fit the SVT.
[ 03-29-2002: Message edited by: belacyrf ]</p>
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Well, I also wish someone would mention something about the possibility of a turbo kit for the SVT. As much as I'm looking forward to the JRSC, superchargers just don't have much potential if you really want a good deal of boost.
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In the past I have cut the heads to bring up the compresion. If you have to much compresion you ADD another head gasket or order Thicker ones for Less compresion
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I have done it for Jets skis, Boat motors and Cars - to much comp. pings on Av gas and to much money to run Trick Racing Fuels
I have done it for Jets skis, Boat motors and Cars - to much comp. pings on Av gas and to much money to run Trick Racing Fuels
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We are looking at the idea of doing a turbo for the SVT
302HP and 301TQ at the wheels stock zetec engine
tom
[ 03-31-2002: Message edited by: 1turbofocus ]</p>
302HP and 301TQ at the wheels stock zetec engine
tom
[ 03-31-2002: Message edited by: 1turbofocus ]</p>
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 1turbofocus:
We are looking at the idea of doint a turbo for the SVT
302HP and 301TQ at the wheels stock zetec engine
tom<hr></blockquote>
do u mean those are the specs for the ZX3 motor or the possible specs for the SVT motor??
We are looking at the idea of doint a turbo for the SVT
302HP and 301TQ at the wheels stock zetec engine
tom<hr></blockquote>
do u mean those are the specs for the ZX3 motor or the possible specs for the SVT motor??
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duc you dont think i did 302hp at the wheels with the stock engine
and yes the SVT will do 300hp at the wheels with the stock engine
tom
and yes the SVT will do 300hp at the wheels with the stock engine
tom
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You forgot the pump gas part
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 1turbofocus:
duc you dont think i did 302hp at the wheels with the stock engine
and yes the SVT will do 300hp at the wheels with the stock engine
tom<hr></blockquote>
Stock Engine on PUMP Gas... ya gotta read the whole thing. There is no way you're going to get the high compression 4 banger to 300 WHP on pump gas. Just not going to happen. If you do, I'll certainly be the first to take my large foot, and stick it into my even larger mouth.
Duc is right.. I forgot your 300 whp was on 103 octane wasn't it? (Either that or 100). So my bad, but it will be interesting to see what Tom can do with the SVT
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duc you dont think i did 302hp at the wheels with the stock engine
and yes the SVT will do 300hp at the wheels with the stock engine
tom<hr></blockquote>
Stock Engine on PUMP Gas... ya gotta read the whole thing. There is no way you're going to get the high compression 4 banger to 300 WHP on pump gas. Just not going to happen. If you do, I'll certainly be the first to take my large foot, and stick it into my even larger mouth.
Duc is right.. I forgot your 300 whp was on 103 octane wasn't it? (Either that or 100). So my bad, but it will be interesting to see what Tom can do with the SVT
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belacyrf ,,do you want that with any sauce
i ran it many times on 93 i only ran it on the dyno with 100 as we were testing new ground
the pass in florida that i did the 105mph was florida pump 93
so open mouth and insert foot
tom
i ran it many times on 93 i only ran it on the dyno with 100 as we were testing new ground
the pass in florida that i did the 105mph was florida pump 93
so open mouth and insert foot
tom
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I'M GETTING AN SVT AND REALLY WANT A TURBO BUT YOU SAY YOU CAN GET 300HP IF THAT'S TRUE THEN LET ME IN ON THE SECRET. IF I COULD GET 300HP WITH USING 93+ OCTANE I'LL FORK OUT SOME CASH.
![Image]()
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no secret just good tuning ben doing it for months on my focus
the SVT has more compression so it will make power at a lower boost ,,but there is still a lot of testing to do,,what ever it comes to will be over 220hp at the wheels and there is nothing else out there that will do that ,,but i think we can
tom
the SVT has more compression so it will make power at a lower boost ,,but there is still a lot of testing to do,,what ever it comes to will be over 220hp at the wheels and there is nothing else out there that will do that ,,but i think we can
tom
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> ran it many times on 93 i only ran it on the dyno with 100 as we were testing new ground<hr></blockquote>
Last time we were talking about it you claimed to be running on "pump gas"... but then admitted that the gas coming from the pump was 100+octane (not the usual octane one would expect to see at a gas station). I could pull up the thread.
If you've run 18PSI on 93 octane, its a new development or you were confused by my question previously during our discussion of what octane you were running (not just on the dyno).
I do believe 220whp attainable on the SVT with 93 octane (not with stock timing of course). The non-intercooled M62 setup was already approaching 200whp afterall. 300whp on 93 with a 10.2:1 CR though... I'd have to see it to believe it. The Civic Si has been around for a long time with several experienced tuners that have had plenty of time to fiddle with the motor (guys in the low 12s), and I doubt that the Zetec combustion chamber is any more advanced than a B16... so in any case thats where I usually look as to whats likely possible. There is a guy with 320+hp Si, but he lowered his CR to 9.2:1. There are guys with intercooled centrifugal SCs (very efficient with regard to heating the charge) running as much as 10.5:1 CR, but I'll have to double-check what max power they were able to get with even the slightest window for error on 93 octane. Pretty sure its closer to 10PSI than the 16 or so PSI required to hit 300wheel.
[ 03-31-2002: Message edited by: Ducman69 ]</p>
Last time we were talking about it you claimed to be running on "pump gas"... but then admitted that the gas coming from the pump was 100+octane (not the usual octane one would expect to see at a gas station). I could pull up the thread.
If you've run 18PSI on 93 octane, its a new development or you were confused by my question previously during our discussion of what octane you were running (not just on the dyno).
I do believe 220whp attainable on the SVT with 93 octane (not with stock timing of course). The non-intercooled M62 setup was already approaching 200whp afterall. 300whp on 93 with a 10.2:1 CR though... I'd have to see it to believe it. The Civic Si has been around for a long time with several experienced tuners that have had plenty of time to fiddle with the motor (guys in the low 12s), and I doubt that the Zetec combustion chamber is any more advanced than a B16... so in any case thats where I usually look as to whats likely possible. There is a guy with 320+hp Si, but he lowered his CR to 9.2:1. There are guys with intercooled centrifugal SCs (very efficient with regard to heating the charge) running as much as 10.5:1 CR, but I'll have to double-check what max power they were able to get with even the slightest window for error on 93 octane. Pretty sure its closer to 10PSI than the 16 or so PSI required to hit 300wheel.
[ 03-31-2002: Message edited by: Ducman69 ]</p>
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You can get 93 and 100 at many regular gas stations here and i run both
i have hit 18psi boost many times with the 93 when i go on the dyno most of the time i will run the 100
tom
i have hit 18psi boost many times with the 93 when i go on the dyno most of the time i will run the 100
tom
So im confused I was reading an article called boneyard boost in a popular sport compact magazine. in it the ghettoed an old ford t3 turbo
with relevent fueling issues etc etc on a b16 A motor with 10:1 compression. Now the key is
they ran about 9 pounds of boost into this motor..... Soooooooooo why is everyone saying this is not possible with our svt zetec engine...
is this venerable B16A Honda motor that much better???????? Personally I believe with the proper internals and good fueling you can easily add high levels of boost and not make it explode........... *shrug*
with relevent fueling issues etc etc on a b16 A motor with 10:1 compression. Now the key is
they ran about 9 pounds of boost into this motor..... Soooooooooo why is everyone saying this is not possible with our svt zetec engine...
is this venerable B16A Honda motor that much better???????? Personally I believe with the proper internals and good fueling you can easily add high levels of boost and not make it explode........... *shrug*
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 1turbofocus:
belacyrf ,,do you want that with any sauce
i ran it many times on 93 i only ran it on the dyno with 100 as we were testing new ground
the pass in florida that i did the 105mph was florida pump 93
so open mouth and insert foot
tom<hr></blockquote>
LOL I was talking about the SVT... you sure do have a chip on that shoulder of yours dontcha. To quote myself
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Stock Engine on PUMP Gas... ya gotta read the whole thing. There is no way you're going to get the high compression 4 banger to 300 WHP on pump gas. Just not going to happen. If you do, I'll certainly be the first to take my large foot, and stick it into my even larger mouth.<hr></blockquote>
High Compression being the keyword there, so I was staying on topic about the SVT turbo. You're achievement with 300whp for the ZX-3 is old news, not un-impressive, just old news. I don't remember the gas your ran with the ZX-3, and it's not a big deal, (however I sure dont' consider 100 to be "pump" gas) but whatever...
![Image]()
Either way, anything about SVT turbo results would all be conjecture. But as I said before, if you can create an SVT setup pulling 300 whp on PUMP gas (93 octane... which isn't even availabe in CA), then I will most humbly apologize.
![Image]()
Cya
belacyrf ,,do you want that with any sauce
i ran it many times on 93 i only ran it on the dyno with 100 as we were testing new ground
the pass in florida that i did the 105mph was florida pump 93
so open mouth and insert foot
tom<hr></blockquote>
LOL I was talking about the SVT... you sure do have a chip on that shoulder of yours dontcha. To quote myself
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Stock Engine on PUMP Gas... ya gotta read the whole thing. There is no way you're going to get the high compression 4 banger to 300 WHP on pump gas. Just not going to happen. If you do, I'll certainly be the first to take my large foot, and stick it into my even larger mouth.<hr></blockquote>
High Compression being the keyword there, so I was staying on topic about the SVT turbo. You're achievement with 300whp for the ZX-3 is old news, not un-impressive, just old news. I don't remember the gas your ran with the ZX-3, and it's not a big deal, (however I sure dont' consider 100 to be "pump" gas) but whatever...
Either way, anything about SVT turbo results would all be conjecture. But as I said before, if you can create an SVT setup pulling 300 whp on PUMP gas (93 octane... which isn't even availabe in CA), then I will most humbly apologize.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Personally I believe with the proper internals and good fueling you can easily add high levels of boost and not make it explode........... *shrug* <hr></blockquote>
Well sure, if you are altering the internals, you'd change the CR at the same time to something safer 9.2:1 or so.
![Image]()
Then you could run 18 lbs w/ a little safety window on 93 and not have to worry about the radio hiding detonation when at WOT every other time. The extra boost would more than outweigh the loss in efficiency. But the goal was to avoid digging into the internals (which are "upgraded" from the standard Zetec already). The forged rods it has are nice and allows you to operate at higher rpms safely, but its not an excuse for the compression issue creating a detonation problem, anymore than its ok to get punched in the head if you are wearing a helmet. Sure your lip won't be bleeding right away, but after ten or twenty punches to the head, even with the helmet, you'll probably be dizzy and really pissed off.
![Image]()
![Image]()
That setup would just be delaying the inevitable IMO.
The issue before was about the popular AC kit for example. While 8PSI would make more power with a higher CR, they say you only get 3-4hp per CR point. So you'd gain perhaps 20hp compared to a lower CR Zetec. However, that would naturally require a higher octane fuel to stay at that timing which isn't really available for most. So you'd need to retard the timing which would lose some power compared to before with higher octane... negating some of the benefit. Not to mention that it means you really need a chip for tuning which raises the cost.
So you'd end up with around the same power as guys with the underperforming stock Zetec while paying more (or less power and paying the same if you were to run 7PSI and keep timing stock instead). It'd still be a nice 50horsepower increase, but the principle would still be kinda crummy. So thats why its not as "ideal" a platform for boosting IMO, and is surely the main reason AC seems pretty disinterested in altering the kit for the SVT.
Those Si guys with 10.5:1 CRs were running up to 10lbs of boost... and that should at least net a healthy 220whp on a Zetec assuming we can do the same, which is why I noted I don't doubt thats possible. But you can only run so rich with so much timing retard before you start encountering problems on 93 octane again, which is why I don't see much more than 12PSI or so being run... and even that would need decent (aka expensive) dynotuning since the window for error is smaller and you can't risk guesstimating when pushing the envelope.
So then if you compare the cost/effort put into it, you'd be making more power if you just started off with a regular Zetec. Boost can be done, just requires either redoing the internals or living with lower performance than equal $ invested in the lower CR "stock" Zetec. Definitely not going to be any more forgiving than the same boost on a lower CR car. Sad saying goodbye to the nice SVT 4-2-1 header too since most turbos use circulated engine oil and can't be mounted low like the AC (which is a poor option for the reasons noted above). Just my opinion though.
![Image]()
Well sure, if you are altering the internals, you'd change the CR at the same time to something safer 9.2:1 or so.
The issue before was about the popular AC kit for example. While 8PSI would make more power with a higher CR, they say you only get 3-4hp per CR point. So you'd gain perhaps 20hp compared to a lower CR Zetec. However, that would naturally require a higher octane fuel to stay at that timing which isn't really available for most. So you'd need to retard the timing which would lose some power compared to before with higher octane... negating some of the benefit. Not to mention that it means you really need a chip for tuning which raises the cost.
So you'd end up with around the same power as guys with the underperforming stock Zetec while paying more (or less power and paying the same if you were to run 7PSI and keep timing stock instead). It'd still be a nice 50horsepower increase, but the principle would still be kinda crummy. So thats why its not as "ideal" a platform for boosting IMO, and is surely the main reason AC seems pretty disinterested in altering the kit for the SVT.
Those Si guys with 10.5:1 CRs were running up to 10lbs of boost... and that should at least net a healthy 220whp on a Zetec assuming we can do the same, which is why I noted I don't doubt thats possible. But you can only run so rich with so much timing retard before you start encountering problems on 93 octane again, which is why I don't see much more than 12PSI or so being run... and even that would need decent (aka expensive) dynotuning since the window for error is smaller and you can't risk guesstimating when pushing the envelope.
So then if you compare the cost/effort put into it, you'd be making more power if you just started off with a regular Zetec. Boost can be done, just requires either redoing the internals or living with lower performance than equal $ invested in the lower CR "stock" Zetec. Definitely not going to be any more forgiving than the same boost on a lower CR car. Sad saying goodbye to the nice SVT 4-2-1 header too since most turbos use circulated engine oil and can't be mounted low like the AC (which is a poor option for the reasons noted above). Just my opinion though.
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