http://www.wilkerstaff.com/2003-ECHC-Lowes-kaboom.WMV
Damn nice save. That Prelude was definitely loose in that banked turn!
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=603818
Blown motor video
SlickShoes
Damn nice save. That Prelude was definitely loose in that banked turn!
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=603818
21 - 30 of 30 Posts
Joined
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5,592 Posts
i gave you your chance, you cant be wrong for anythin you've said b/c of your 'significant track experience'. i referenced the event as it was to be my first with this car. but b/c of the way you conducted yourself in this thread, not my reservations about the motor's perceived weaknesses or the risks overall for any car on a closed course, have changed my mindset in that if you are a model of whats representing the focus movement out onto road courses...than i dont wanna even try it.
-Ult
should have said 'spa-francorchamps-like straights'.
-Ult
should have said 'spa-francorchamps-like straights'.
My chance at what? To prove that I have a basis for what I said and you don't? Oh, and btw, try the search button, as there have been plenty of case where I have been wrong here and have told everyone about it. Actually here is one that includes VIR. As for my experience on track, help me understand what better credentials you bring than mine. I know that there are other members of this forum with greater knowledge base than me, but I have yet to see one indication that you have anything valuable to contribute to people doing or considering doing track events.
Like I said before, grow up. If you really wanted to be on track in November, you would. If you want to tell everyone that you are not coming because of me, fine. I'll be your scapegoat since that is easy for you.
And I am not representing any kind of movement to anything. I (and a number of other people here) have a good time driving out Foci on track. Join us if you want to. These aren't 'lifestyle' events or part of some greater movement. In fact, after doing it a few times, you suddenly realize that it has nothing to do with the car that you drive, so you laugh when outsiders talk about their cars and taking what 'needs' to be done to take them on track.
Still no answer?
Joined
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18,852 Posts
Well Rich, I have things that NEED to happen to my car before any "Track" event, lest I wind up backwards in a fence.
![Image]()
Right now, my rear Koni's are at FULL Stiff, on SVT Springs.
It's "Auto-X'Loose".
At Greater speed, I would REALLY have to lose time in the sweeper-type corners, or I'd be 'Round in a Minute.
The sad thing is that the price I had to pay for a GREAT deal on some used Koni Shocks was that they are the "Old-School" "Remove to Adjust" type.
I don't mind "BUMPING" down the interstate, but "On Track", I'd want more Stability.
I also have to weigh my Tire/$$$ options.
Local Auto-X IS my Current Focus. (No Pun Intended, but it's fun anyway...
)
I STILL would like to make the adjustments and go,... we'll just have to see how this pregnancy affects what funds the wife is willing to let me play with. We're "House-Hunting", and she holds the Purse-Strings.
Blown Motor??? Not Worried.
I hit 6850-6900 or so, and she falls flat on her face when the limiter kicks in.
![Image]()
Yeah, at least the Speed-Limiter's gone, but I have No Idea what kind of Speeds that track will see in a N/A Focus, so, for all I know, that doesn't matter.
I HOPE to see everyone there.
NOW STOP ARGUING!!!
![Image]()
Right now, my rear Koni's are at FULL Stiff, on SVT Springs.
It's "Auto-X'Loose".
At Greater speed, I would REALLY have to lose time in the sweeper-type corners, or I'd be 'Round in a Minute.
The sad thing is that the price I had to pay for a GREAT deal on some used Koni Shocks was that they are the "Old-School" "Remove to Adjust" type.
I don't mind "BUMPING" down the interstate, but "On Track", I'd want more Stability.
I also have to weigh my Tire/$$$ options.
Local Auto-X IS my Current Focus. (No Pun Intended, but it's fun anyway...
)I STILL would like to make the adjustments and go,... we'll just have to see how this pregnancy affects what funds the wife is willing to let me play with. We're "House-Hunting", and she holds the Purse-Strings.
Blown Motor??? Not Worried.
I hit 6850-6900 or so, and she falls flat on her face when the limiter kicks in.
Yeah, at least the Speed-Limiter's gone, but I have No Idea what kind of Speeds that track will see in a N/A Focus, so, for all I know, that doesn't matter.
I HOPE to see everyone there.
NOW STOP ARGUING!!!
Ult, in this forum, actions talk, and BS walks. We just don't tollerate BS around here. You have no experience on track to make the claims you did, and your statements were very irresponsible. We're calling you on it. Take it like a man.
The fact is, the Zetec IS a tough little motor, no matter what any "tuners" think. Treat it with even the smallest bit of respect, and it will just keep soldiering on.
It is not subject to oiling problems like many "high performance" engines like the M3, Cobra, Porsche 2.5L I4, etc...
Most of the engines that have blown up have done so because of moronic tuners who have no idea what they're doing, and they blew up on the STREET, not the track.
I don't think a single engine has blown up on track yet, no matter which track you are talking about. If they are badly tuned, they blow up on the street even before they get to a track! If they make it to the track under their own power... it'll be fine on track.
Again, look at the body of knowledge here.
Litterally 100's of stock Foci trackdays have been logged on tracks across the country with no problems.
We have guys like Murph running 7000+ rpm screamers with stock rods, with no problems.
Chris F has run on track much more than I, with the turbo, and no problems yet. Even passed emissions after a year of running on track with a turbo.
I ran 200 miles in one day, with 9psi, no intercooling, and stock internals with no problems. And this poor little engine has suffered a lot of abuse while I learned to tune.
You have no basis for your statements.
Yeah, Rich was a little harsh. But don't be a baby. This is a forum full of adults who are successful because we uphold rigorous standards for the information we listen to and pass on.
Michael: If money permits, I'd suggest you come out even with the handling the way it is. If it's so dangerous you wouldn't go on track, then I don't think you should be driving it on the street. The track is a safer place to be than the street. You have enough autocross experience to control the car, and know the limits of what you can do with it.
I'm in a much better place now, financially, and really hope to go. Now it's a matter of rushing to get a cage in before I get out there. I might end up waiting and just paying the extra $25 or so.
Question: How cold is it at night in Virginia at that time? My sleeping bag is good to about -7C, but I don't know if I'd want it to be THAT cold. I'm getting to be old y'know.
![Image]()
The fact is, the Zetec IS a tough little motor, no matter what any "tuners" think. Treat it with even the smallest bit of respect, and it will just keep soldiering on.
It is not subject to oiling problems like many "high performance" engines like the M3, Cobra, Porsche 2.5L I4, etc...
Most of the engines that have blown up have done so because of moronic tuners who have no idea what they're doing, and they blew up on the STREET, not the track.
I don't think a single engine has blown up on track yet, no matter which track you are talking about. If they are badly tuned, they blow up on the street even before they get to a track! If they make it to the track under their own power... it'll be fine on track.
Again, look at the body of knowledge here.
Litterally 100's of stock Foci trackdays have been logged on tracks across the country with no problems.
We have guys like Murph running 7000+ rpm screamers with stock rods, with no problems.
Chris F has run on track much more than I, with the turbo, and no problems yet. Even passed emissions after a year of running on track with a turbo.
I ran 200 miles in one day, with 9psi, no intercooling, and stock internals with no problems. And this poor little engine has suffered a lot of abuse while I learned to tune.
You have no basis for your statements.
Yeah, Rich was a little harsh. But don't be a baby. This is a forum full of adults who are successful because we uphold rigorous standards for the information we listen to and pass on.
Michael: If money permits, I'd suggest you come out even with the handling the way it is. If it's so dangerous you wouldn't go on track, then I don't think you should be driving it on the street. The track is a safer place to be than the street. You have enough autocross experience to control the car, and know the limits of what you can do with it.
I'm in a much better place now, financially, and really hope to go. Now it's a matter of rushing to get a cage in before I get out there. I might end up waiting and just paying the extra $25 or so.
Question: How cold is it at night in Virginia at that time? My sleeping bag is good to about -7C, but I don't know if I'd want it to be THAT cold. I'm getting to be old y'know.
Joined
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5,592 Posts
uh P....notice i said 'with this car'. so dont call me on 'no track experience'. while most of my stuff is drag (another form of abuse to the engine), not all of it is. you cant assume on people. i gave my honest opinion. if you dont agree with it, then yes display your own and those you know's findings to the contrary or PM me about it. it will go to benefit all. this as opposed to rich comin on here all 'mr. track foci' and tryin to blow me right outta the water with no foundation nor knowledge of who i am or what i've done, resorting instead to silly name calling.
while some of you are very flamboyant or passionate bout your interests, i play my cards a lil closer to my chest. rich might think his pocket queens own over anythin i could possibly have, thus he spats off...he could have just PM'd me w/his disagreements or request i alter my post such that i didnt 'scare' (as if some1 wouldnt think about the potential of a part failure at an event like this) any1 off who wanted to go to this event that i wanted to go to myself. all the 'knowledge' you all display now could have been done so initially w/o insults, alas this thread does no1 no good, least of all rich.
my actions have been anything but childish...how i'm still responding to this slur is a wonder itself (gonna go now and do gauge work). thats why i'm continuing to constrict what aid, experiences, opinions, and advice i give on forums like these b/c you'll only be met w/some1 who wants to chop your head off. this as well, is what also drives people away period. am i perfect, no, there were some calls i made that i didnt like, and there were some calls i wish some1 else had brought to the fore 1st. if no1 took the iniative, then no1 would get help.
despite it all, i've dealt out no insults. i even thought his initial reply was a joke to make sure i came (hence my next reply) apparently he was intent on givin out what he saw as deserved insults. frankly, those 2 words together dont seem to work do they?
i'll leave you w/another honest thought from me, if he wants to match wits. if i had the overbearing need to prove my manhood (not somethin i concern myself with), given the same car as rich, i'd drop him on lap time. plain and simple.
however, i do not desire to hang around this crowd if he and his actions are an example of who is involved, i'm not the 1st to drop out on this idea. if you read back thru the initial VIR thread, you'll see some1 else voice their displeasure w/people gettin out there, and immediately another jetter is turned off at the idea b/c of him and drops out.
we all must learn from this.
-Ult
while some of you are very flamboyant or passionate bout your interests, i play my cards a lil closer to my chest. rich might think his pocket queens own over anythin i could possibly have, thus he spats off...he could have just PM'd me w/his disagreements or request i alter my post such that i didnt 'scare' (as if some1 wouldnt think about the potential of a part failure at an event like this) any1 off who wanted to go to this event that i wanted to go to myself. all the 'knowledge' you all display now could have been done so initially w/o insults, alas this thread does no1 no good, least of all rich.
my actions have been anything but childish...how i'm still responding to this slur is a wonder itself (gonna go now and do gauge work). thats why i'm continuing to constrict what aid, experiences, opinions, and advice i give on forums like these b/c you'll only be met w/some1 who wants to chop your head off. this as well, is what also drives people away period. am i perfect, no, there were some calls i made that i didnt like, and there were some calls i wish some1 else had brought to the fore 1st. if no1 took the iniative, then no1 would get help.
despite it all, i've dealt out no insults. i even thought his initial reply was a joke to make sure i came (hence my next reply) apparently he was intent on givin out what he saw as deserved insults. frankly, those 2 words together dont seem to work do they?
i'll leave you w/another honest thought from me, if he wants to match wits. if i had the overbearing need to prove my manhood (not somethin i concern myself with), given the same car as rich, i'd drop him on lap time. plain and simple.
however, i do not desire to hang around this crowd if he and his actions are an example of who is involved, i'm not the 1st to drop out on this idea. if you read back thru the initial VIR thread, you'll see some1 else voice their displeasure w/people gettin out there, and immediately another jetter is turned off at the idea b/c of him and drops out.
we all must learn from this.
-Ult
Michael,
With the number of people that we will have there, we will be able to pull your rear shocks and change the setting in ten minutes. Give me the word and I will bring my stock rear swaybar too. You will then have no 'spin-cycle' concerns.
As for the limiter, you may get it, but I doubt it. The back straight is uphill and comes away from a very slow corner. The fact that the entry to the corner at the end is nealy blind makes you hesitant to hold to the mat for every last second. Hogpen, leading on to the front straight, can be very fast, but it takes a lot of practice and confidence to drive it well. Remember it is all about exit speed.
Rob,
-7C? Ok, let me see, divide by five, multipy by nine and add 32, right? Nightime lows may dip below freezing, but there will be plenty of heaters available, I am sure. The only problem I see is if it is very windy. VIR is in the foothills and the wind can be bitterly cold (or nice and refreshing if it is July). Plus, we can always go into the big bathroom at the top of the hill and soak up some of the heat there. Not exactly worldclass accomodations, but what do you want for $10?
1 - You claim a bunch of Zetecs will blow when not one on track failure has been recorded here.
2 - You indicate that a certain track design will cause engine failures and yet you have no experience to back it up with.
3 - Tom a FOCALJET sponsor and others are working to get people to this event and you cast a dark cloud over it.
With the number of people that we will have there, we will be able to pull your rear shocks and change the setting in ten minutes. Give me the word and I will bring my stock rear swaybar too. You will then have no 'spin-cycle' concerns.
As for the limiter, you may get it, but I doubt it. The back straight is uphill and comes away from a very slow corner. The fact that the entry to the corner at the end is nealy blind makes you hesitant to hold to the mat for every last second. Hogpen, leading on to the front straight, can be very fast, but it takes a lot of practice and confidence to drive it well. Remember it is all about exit speed.
Rob,
-7C? Ok, let me see, divide by five, multipy by nine and add 32, right? Nightime lows may dip below freezing, but there will be plenty of heaters available, I am sure. The only problem I see is if it is very windy. VIR is in the foothills and the wind can be bitterly cold (or nice and refreshing if it is July). Plus, we can always go into the big bathroom at the top of the hill and soak up some of the heat there. Not exactly worldclass accomodations, but what do you want for $10?
So you do have track experience? Is that what you are saying? Please share. Which tracks, what cars, when, with what instructors and groups?
Still do not understand how this has done me no good. As for my insults, I stand by them. You comment was so utterly ridiculous that I reponded in kind. Let me run this down for you again:
1 - You claim a bunch of Zetecs will blow when not one on track failure has been recorded here.
2 - You indicate that a certain track design will cause engine failures and yet you have no experience to back it up with.
3 - Tom a FOCALJET sponsor and others are working to get people to this event and you cast a dark cloud over it.
Now we get the root of the problem. You hold the belief that what you said was helpful. Please read points 1 thru 3 above and show me how you were in anyway helpful.
Perhaps I am missing this one. I do not think anyone has bailed because of me. In fact, I contacted G&W and asked them to post here to make sure that everyone got the facts straight and would come knowing what they were getting into.
Again, no substance to back this up. More hollow words from someone who makes wild claims with no basis in fact. You said that you won't be there and now you say that you will post faster lap times than me. You are making a joke of yourself. Aren't you embarassed?
Everyone except you, apparently. Still waiting:
Even though I've sold my Focus, I've been watching this thread for a while. I actually have a point of view relevant to the situation.
Having driven Rich's car on track at both VIR and Roebling, I have about 6 hrs of track time under my belt in that car. In addition, I've probably spent an hour plus of passenger seat time on track with Rich.
At last year's Roebling event, the two of us put 370+ track miles on the car, so combine that with a 5 hr trip (each way) from Raleigh to Roebling and back, we abused that Zetec above and beyond the call of duty. There were no hiccups, there were no problems.
These are not easy miles - there were several instances of me exiting the final turn at Roebling at the top of 3rd, bouncing off the rev limiter for 2 or 3 seconds. Unless your car has proven to be one of the early "lemon" Zetecs, a well maintained Focus has practically no worry blowing up on track. Obviously an aggressively or poorly tuned car, regardless of the engine, has a much higher chance of having problems. However, Murph and Rob are certainly running aggressively tuned setups, and they're both still running strong.
I've lurked around these forums enough over the last year to know that there certainly isn't a rash of Zetec failures on track. If someone can produce several threads with documented Zetec failures on track, I'd be happy to see them.
As I'm sure everyone is aware, tuning a car for open-track time vs drag racing is night and day. Ragged-edge drag tuning doesn't work well for a 30 min track session, and "conservative" open-track tuning will probably leave a tenth or two at the strip.
Still being somewhat of a track noob, I will absolutely concur with Rich about the lack of importance of the car. It's about the driver. It's about improving your technique, improving your line, improving your vision. It's about learning to wring the most performance out of whatever you bring to the track. If you bring a Z06 to the track, you don't brag to your friends about passing a ZX3 - you're probably not driving the car very well. I've seen a particular student at 2 of our schools just missing the point entirely. He drives a beautiful 300ZX TT, highly modified and well maintained. He comes off the track every time moaning and complaining about the car. He makes changes, goes back out on track, and comes off doing the same thing. Never have I heard him say anything about improving his skills or how he improved as a driver that session. He just doesn't get it. I've followed him on track, and he's not driving very well. If he'd just turn the boost down, quit playing with his air/fuel levels, and learn how to drive the car, he'd be so much faster. Isn't that the point?
It's not my style to call someone out, but I have to laugh at Ult's claim to "drop" Rich's lap time. I do find it odd that you say you won't show up, but then make that claim. Empty statements like that don't do a lot for your credibility with this crowd. With equipment being the same, unless you have a lot of time on track, you'd be hard pressed to hop in that car and run better times than Rich, and expect to come back with the shiny side still facing upwards. Rich is an experienced, fast driver. Could you be faster, maybe, but highly unlikely due to the fact that you won't tell us if you've been on track before.
If you want to gain some face, show up with a positive attitude, drive within your limits, and learn something. Will you get some good natured ribbing from the other jetters? Yes. Will they help you become a better driver if you ask? Absolutely. I don't think there is much more you can say on this thread to better your credibility. It's time take action.
Having driven Rich's car on track at both VIR and Roebling, I have about 6 hrs of track time under my belt in that car. In addition, I've probably spent an hour plus of passenger seat time on track with Rich.
At last year's Roebling event, the two of us put 370+ track miles on the car, so combine that with a 5 hr trip (each way) from Raleigh to Roebling and back, we abused that Zetec above and beyond the call of duty. There were no hiccups, there were no problems.
These are not easy miles - there were several instances of me exiting the final turn at Roebling at the top of 3rd, bouncing off the rev limiter for 2 or 3 seconds. Unless your car has proven to be one of the early "lemon" Zetecs, a well maintained Focus has practically no worry blowing up on track. Obviously an aggressively or poorly tuned car, regardless of the engine, has a much higher chance of having problems. However, Murph and Rob are certainly running aggressively tuned setups, and they're both still running strong.
I've lurked around these forums enough over the last year to know that there certainly isn't a rash of Zetec failures on track. If someone can produce several threads with documented Zetec failures on track, I'd be happy to see them.
As I'm sure everyone is aware, tuning a car for open-track time vs drag racing is night and day. Ragged-edge drag tuning doesn't work well for a 30 min track session, and "conservative" open-track tuning will probably leave a tenth or two at the strip.
Still being somewhat of a track noob, I will absolutely concur with Rich about the lack of importance of the car. It's about the driver. It's about improving your technique, improving your line, improving your vision. It's about learning to wring the most performance out of whatever you bring to the track. If you bring a Z06 to the track, you don't brag to your friends about passing a ZX3 - you're probably not driving the car very well. I've seen a particular student at 2 of our schools just missing the point entirely. He drives a beautiful 300ZX TT, highly modified and well maintained. He comes off the track every time moaning and complaining about the car. He makes changes, goes back out on track, and comes off doing the same thing. Never have I heard him say anything about improving his skills or how he improved as a driver that session. He just doesn't get it. I've followed him on track, and he's not driving very well. If he'd just turn the boost down, quit playing with his air/fuel levels, and learn how to drive the car, he'd be so much faster. Isn't that the point?
It's not my style to call someone out, but I have to laugh at Ult's claim to "drop" Rich's lap time. I do find it odd that you say you won't show up, but then make that claim. Empty statements like that don't do a lot for your credibility with this crowd. With equipment being the same, unless you have a lot of time on track, you'd be hard pressed to hop in that car and run better times than Rich, and expect to come back with the shiny side still facing upwards. Rich is an experienced, fast driver. Could you be faster, maybe, but highly unlikely due to the fact that you won't tell us if you've been on track before.
If you want to gain some face, show up with a positive attitude, drive within your limits, and learn something. Will you get some good natured ribbing from the other jetters? Yes. Will they help you become a better driver if you ask? Absolutely. I don't think there is much more you can say on this thread to better your credibility. It's time take action.
gee, i'm sorry i missed this one. i know rich's fustration, having tried to get people out in general, not just foci. and i am sure rich is just like all the great people i have met racing over the years. racers will help you in any way they can, i.e. rich letting people use his car, offering instruction, etal. are you saying that is turning people off. how. i was accused of that same charge elsewhere for a factual statement i made about people not coming. someone used that as an excuse for the old well now i'm not going. he never was probably.look elsewhere and you'll see i have offered to lend equipment, ride alongs or whatever is needed to get people out.rich know's, i know, and so do many others that going to a track for the first time can be very daunting. anyway i can feel rich's pain, as bill would say. the original statement was way off base and served no useful purpose. and by the by straights are not where you suffer oil starvation. its in the old corners. p.s i hope no one else gets their feelings hurt and decides not to come. p.s.s. as a former teacher and old fart, i think perhaps proper english might bolster your argument. and also about foci going home on a trailer, you are right. mine will. of course that is how it is going there. once again, if rich is turning you off to road courses, perhaps you are not cut out to be there. too bad, thanks to people like tom and rich and the others, it looks to be a great time, perhaps something we could build a yearly experience around. big egos do not belong on a road course, nor do those who feign great offense at a perceived slight.
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