Soooo, I know most people have the K&N cause its so readily available...but does anyone have substaniating evidence for choosing one over the other? Are they both in the $50-range? Thanks...
CCC
CCC
ITG vs. K&N Drop-In Filter
CCC
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Should buy American anyway, isn't ITG in England?
I say skip the online ordering process and get what is available in any autopart store. You won't notice any difference. I've had both and personally I like K&N better for the convenience factor and quality. Also if the foam design was so good, I think it would be alot more popular.
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Yes, cheap and quiet doesn't hurt. But maybe they are cheap because they make billions of them? The oil, btw, will help dust retention, not filtration, until enough dust is retained by the oil to make the pores smaller. But then there is more pressure loss (sometimes physics just sucks). Oil just helps a clean element filter better after enough dust has passed thru it. So the temptation is for manufacturers to quote the clean filter pressure drop, but quote the dirty filter particulate size.
The tests we've run were for our clients as acceptance tests before they take their new test bench home. Everything has to work according to the SAE/ISO/JIS specifications. Analyzing the particulate size for the efficiency rating is very expensive, and the data isn't ours to share. But most of what I said is very basic, and reputable manufacturers have this data already. If they don't, then their claims are not misleading sales-speak, they are complete fabrications. In order to compare ANY filtration device, you need to know: 1)efficiency versus particle size (how much of each size particle is captured); 2)pressure drop versus dust loading (mass of dust retained) for a given filter size. Armed with that data, a comparison can be made between filters of the same size.
For detailed study of what the testing does, I refer you to the SAE document J726, or ISO-5011 or JIS-D-1612. Unfortunately, these documents are copywrited and they are definitely not free.
If you get efficiency curves and pressure data, I'll be glad to look them over and compare the filters for you. We could then publish the findings on this forum. But I think it will be obvious to you that ALOT of 10 micron particles go right thru these filters.
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.....and you drive an RX8???? Even the SVT Focus isn't built in America, for heaven's sake.
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Maybe he'd like to donate it to a filter comparison test????![Image]()
Welcome back ASU.This story never gets old.![Image]()
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I hate to break it to you, but there are very few companies and products that will allow you to put a few thousand miles on something and then try to return it. Though, I'm sure I've told you this before.![Image]()
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I have had 4 American cars and that has been enough time to try the Japanese and see if they really were everything they were talked up about and that they are, this car makes me happy everytime I see it and drive it......and you drive an RX8???? Even the SVT Focus isn't built in America, for heaven's sake.![Image]()
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I have had 4 American cars and that has been enough time to try the Japanese and see if they really were everything they were talked up about and that they are, this car makes me happy everytime I see it and drive it.
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I don't disagree - except that for a used vehicle, the Japanese cars over the last couple years have gotten too expensive for me. I just love the massive depreciation on the SVT - I couldn't afford it otherwise.
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I don't disagree - except that for a used vehicle, the Japanese cars over the last couple years have gotten too expensive for me. I just love the massive depreciation on the SVT - I couldn't afford it otherwise.
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If ITG would share their data, maybe K&N would give you some data as well????supersonicsvt,
I'll see what I can get from ITG.![Image]()
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So tell them you'll sell the filter that filters the best with the lowest pressure drop!!!! (an OEM paper filter from Ford??!!!!!!) Any manufacturer that won't cough up data is admitting they have stretched the truth (or they're making SOOO much money they don't care if some punk on a forum says their stretching the truth). In God we trust - everyone else bring DATA!
Actually, I believe since our cars are built in Mexico, Interfil makes the filter for Ford. We built a filter test bench for them, and when we tested their filters they were quite good. But these were filters for Nissans.
Actually, I believe since our cars are built in Mexico, Interfil makes the filter for Ford. We built a filter test bench for them, and when we tested their filters they were quite good. But these were filters for Nissans.
I was just thinking about 'surface area'. ITG filters are multi layer of three different densities.
Just from looking it would appear that an ITG filter would have a larger effective suface area vs. a std. paper or K&N style filter.
If so that would account for the much greater dust tolerance before having a negative impact on flow ability.
Just a thought.
Just from looking it would appear that an ITG filter would have a larger effective suface area vs. a std. paper or K&N style filter.
If so that would account for the much greater dust tolerance before having a negative impact on flow ability.
Just a thought.
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Multi layers stacked on top of each other really doesn't help surface area. You might as well use just the layer with the best filtration by itself. The coarser layers can keep the finer layers from getting clogged up as quickly, but particle size filtration is pretty much unaffected by multiple layers.
Dumb paper filters, on the other hand, are pleated which means there is like 10x the surface area of just the filter frame area itself. Big difference. That's why they can filter better and yet have the same pressure drop.
The ideal filter for your car would be a HEPA filter (filters 99.7% of all particles 0.3 microns and larger). But it would have to be the size of your car to keep the pressure drop down. And boy would it get dirty fast!!!!
Dumb paper filters, on the other hand, are pleated which means there is like 10x the surface area of just the filter frame area itself. Big difference. That's why they can filter better and yet have the same pressure drop.
The ideal filter for your car would be a HEPA filter (filters 99.7% of all particles 0.3 microns and larger). But it would have to be the size of your car to keep the pressure drop down. And boy would it get dirty fast!!!!
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Just one more thing to think about. If you look on Euro Sport's website, they have a cartoon comparing pressure drop of filters as they load up with dirt (ITG, gauze, and paper). Until you get about 50 grams of dirt on the filter, there's very little difference in pressure drop. YOU COULD DRIVE YOUR CAR IN THE SAHARA FOR 30 YEARS WITH THE ORIGINAL FILTER AND NOT GET 50 GRAMS OF DUST BUILT UP!!!!!! 50 grams is a PILE!!!!! If you drive your car for 30,000 miles before you change the filter, you've got maybe 1 or 2 grams of dust at the most.
Also note that the gauze filter (K&N prolly) had the least pressure drop when clean. Assuming all 3 filters were the same size, and given that the surface area of a pleated gauze filter is still less than a standard paper filter, this means that the gauze filters let in a TON of crap until they load up.
So, back to my rant: GO FOR FILTRATION!!!!! NOT PRESSURE DROP!!!!! Cuz there's very, very little difference in pressure drop, but a ton of difference in how much of the crap they keep out of your engine. We have to go more than 500 miles before we rebuild an engine, so filtration is PARAMOUNT!!!!!
I do have a couple K&N's available - cheap.............!
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And, I don't even have to clean and oil my paper filters......
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Also note that the gauze filter (K&N prolly) had the least pressure drop when clean. Assuming all 3 filters were the same size, and given that the surface area of a pleated gauze filter is still less than a standard paper filter, this means that the gauze filters let in a TON of crap until they load up.
So, back to my rant: GO FOR FILTRATION!!!!! NOT PRESSURE DROP!!!!! Cuz there's very, very little difference in pressure drop, but a ton of difference in how much of the crap they keep out of your engine. We have to go more than 500 miles before we rebuild an engine, so filtration is PARAMOUNT!!!!!
I do have a couple K&N's available - cheap.............!
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Here's more to prove my point:
http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/z3-coupe/6605272-1.html
If I had the choice of a 3 micron abrasive oil slurry or a 10 micron abrasive slurry constantly Extrude Honing my engine, guess which I would choose..........
Also, the filters HAVE to be PROPERLY oiled and maintained to get the 10 micron filtration. Seems alot easier just to install a good paper filter every 30k, and save $$$$
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Or be a wild man - put in a new filter every year. You can't do better!!!
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http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/z3-coupe/6605272-1.html
If I had the choice of a 3 micron abrasive oil slurry or a 10 micron abrasive slurry constantly Extrude Honing my engine, guess which I would choose..........
Also, the filters HAVE to be PROPERLY oiled and maintained to get the 10 micron filtration. Seems alot easier just to install a good paper filter every 30k, and save $$$$
Or be a wild man - put in a new filter every year. You can't do better!!!
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I've been interested in this debate for six or seven years, and only use paper filters now. I think I posted some pix here of some microscope pix I took several years ago of paper filters and a K&N filter. The lack of any advantage to a cotton gauze filter plus the poor filtering plus the MAF fouling from the oil makes me wonder why anyone uses cotton gauze filters for anything. The micro pix show huge, huge holes in the cotton filters compared to paper. You don't really even need a microscope to see the difference, just hold them up to a light.
That being said, I've known people who've used cotton gauze filters for years and their oil analysis indicates no problems. Usually these people live in areas with low dust and decent humidity, which helps. I live in the southwest and paper filters make a big difference.
A buddy with two sand buggies recently had to pull the intake manifolds on them for maintenance and discovered a fine layer of dust on the inside of the manifolds. That was enough to make him stop using K&N filters.
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YMMV, don't shoot me for my opinion, it's based on data, observation and experience.
That being said, I've known people who've used cotton gauze filters for years and their oil analysis indicates no problems. Usually these people live in areas with low dust and decent humidity, which helps. I live in the southwest and paper filters make a big difference.
A buddy with two sand buggies recently had to pull the intake manifolds on them for maintenance and discovered a fine layer of dust on the inside of the manifolds. That was enough to make him stop using K&N filters.
YMMV, don't shoot me for my opinion, it's based on data, observation and experience.
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Whoa!!! Are you over here too???? Did you sell your Nissan(S) and get a FORD? Oh, the SHAME!!!!
Seriously, I was on the SR20 forum for a few years - had an NX2000. Great forum. I always liked your comments, too.....right to the point!
You have an SVT now?
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Seriously, I was on the SR20 forum for a few years - had an NX2000. Great forum. I always liked your comments, too.....right to the point!
You have an SVT now?
That is interesting because I bought the FS Cool Flo with the ITG and it made a big difference in my 02 SVTF.
I guess everyone has different opinions/results on just about every mod out there.
By the way, do you still have that ITG?
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