http://money.cnn.com/2007/10/30/magazines/fortune/Oil_from_stone.fortune/index.htm
wish they could speed this up...
wish they could speed this up...
oil shale used to maybe produce oil at $30 a barrel
drod01
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True, but simply striving to do things the same way, just a bit slower, shouldn't be the only goal...Ducman69 said:
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EVERYBODY STOP!
regular crude is made at about $30 a barrel when its taken from the earth. whats the big deal?
how is this ANY different than what we have now?
after the taxes, specualtion (emphasis) and fees, its gonna come out even with (drumroll) what we have now.
except its "not worth extracting" - meaning to do so would
"not be economically pheasable"
MEANING since it is now at EQUAL COST OF CONVENTIONAL CRUDE -
it would oversupply the market and decrease what?
Profits for oil companies.
supply and price not considered.
read that again.
are oil companies really expected to LOWER their profits for YOU?
if you ran a buisness would you want the government to tell you to LOWER your margins so more people can afford your products?
in free america?
NO people would stop BUYING them untill YOU WERE FORCED BY THE MARKET to lower your prices. if you like government price controll, there are plenty of communist nations out there...
gasoline is nothing different than any other PRODUCT.
and then whats gonna stop the speculation on the shale oil?
LISTEN CLOSELY NOW
you can "flip" barrels of oil on CREDIT.
YOU CAN PUT ABOUT $4.00 DOWN ON A LOAN, ON AN $90 DOLLAR BARREL OF OIL WITH A TRADE ORDER AT 96.
THAT BARREL DOES NOT SELL UNTILL YOU GET YOUR $96.
THE LOAN IS PAID OFF AND YOU JUST MADE TWO BUCKS IN TEN DAYS FOR NOTHING.
maybe i want to make more than two bucks.
say i throw $1000 into what? 400 barrels?
thats what? $200 profit?
20% return on investment. in two weeks!
mutual funds give what? 10%?
LOOK SOMETHING UP CALLED OIL MARGIN REFORM!!!!
we stopped most margin buying in the stock market- after the great depression - its still a player in the oil market.
is that not scary? cant you see why margin trading is dangerous when theres everythign to loose and LOTS to gain?
we need margin reform otherwise it wil get worse and SNOWBALL.
you heard it here first.
regular crude is made at about $30 a barrel when its taken from the earth. whats the big deal?
how is this ANY different than what we have now?
after the taxes, specualtion (emphasis) and fees, its gonna come out even with (drumroll) what we have now.
except its "not worth extracting" - meaning to do so would
"not be economically pheasable"
MEANING since it is now at EQUAL COST OF CONVENTIONAL CRUDE -
it would oversupply the market and decrease what?
Profits for oil companies.
supply and price not considered.
read that again.
are oil companies really expected to LOWER their profits for YOU?
if you ran a buisness would you want the government to tell you to LOWER your margins so more people can afford your products?
in free america?
NO people would stop BUYING them untill YOU WERE FORCED BY THE MARKET to lower your prices. if you like government price controll, there are plenty of communist nations out there...
gasoline is nothing different than any other PRODUCT.
and then whats gonna stop the speculation on the shale oil?
LISTEN CLOSELY NOW
you can "flip" barrels of oil on CREDIT.
YOU CAN PUT ABOUT $4.00 DOWN ON A LOAN, ON AN $90 DOLLAR BARREL OF OIL WITH A TRADE ORDER AT 96.
THAT BARREL DOES NOT SELL UNTILL YOU GET YOUR $96.
THE LOAN IS PAID OFF AND YOU JUST MADE TWO BUCKS IN TEN DAYS FOR NOTHING.
maybe i want to make more than two bucks.
say i throw $1000 into what? 400 barrels?
thats what? $200 profit?
20% return on investment. in two weeks!
mutual funds give what? 10%?
LOOK SOMETHING UP CALLED OIL MARGIN REFORM!!!!
we stopped most margin buying in the stock market- after the great depression - its still a player in the oil market.
is that not scary? cant you see why margin trading is dangerous when theres everythign to loose and LOTS to gain?
we need margin reform otherwise it wil get worse and SNOWBALL.
you heard it here first.
Actually, closer to $3 in OPEC countries.orionlion82 said:
Your conspiracy theory is FUBAR. Sorry.orionlion82 said:
Stock in my company is ridiculous right now, and all we do are services and exploration. With the high world price of crude right now, EVERYONE wants to get as much crude to market, at the market rate (regardless of their costs, all industries are expected to sell their product at the highest price the market will bare, no exceptions), as possible. Aside from OPEC, there is no union, there is no conspiracy.
Everyone wants to make money. Thats it. None of the other providers have the 80% monopoly on oil reserves that OPEC does, so they can't set the rate, but of course they will sell at whatever the going rate of crude is, and to increase their profits, they have to get MORE of it. So thats why exploration/services is banking BIG TIME right now, as it always does whenever crude is expensive (makes more drilling profitable).
So sorry, your worldwide conspiracy theory is bogus, and the world is simple.
Businesses are simply out to make money, and there is no way that the 2-5% that any one non-OPEC oil company's marketshare is going to drastically alter the price of crude if they can get more and increase that to 6%, making em boatloads of cash. So, if oil shale is competitive w/ offshore drilling and what not, then HELL YES they will jump at that in a heartbeat. And if its a domestic source of energy, then the government can tax extraction, meaning gas can be indirectly cheaper, if the government were to simply tax the consumer less on the fuel (which accounts for a good percentage of your cost right now). In theory, citizens get cheaper fuel w/ a competitive energy advantage to the US, and domestic industries make money (which employ Americans spending money in America). In reality, you get most of the above, except the government doesn't reduce gas tax and instead just spend the extra income on *insert whatever*.
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Because we don’t live in a hypothetical bubble where “all things are equal” yes in your idealistic fantasy world where humans jus did the right thing just because, yes a lower population growth would lower consumption.Ducman69 said:You just can't admit it. Lower population growth means slower energy consumption increase, all else equal. You just... can't... do it.
So funny watching your head spin as you justify yourself.
We don’t live in that world, we live in the US where you waist as much land, buy as big of a house as you can, drive a gas guzzling big American style car as much as possible.
Unless Americans are forced to downsize to survive they waist as much as possible. I could theorize that if the population started to dramatically spike, Americans might panic and really downsize. That is similar to what happened in Japan with water. There was a massive water shortage for a VERY long time, so the government had MANY water conservation efforts. They convinced the people to go nuts over saving water, while undertaking massive water conservation efforts…
The problem they have now is TOO MUCH water. The over built there water supply system (and continue to) even though water consumption has gone DOWN. Even though there are more people living a more high tech life style, conservation is built into everything. So even though the population went up, and the water supply went up, the demand went WAY down.
Didn’t I say basically the same thing?Ducman69 said:
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WHAT?rpvitiello said:
(My emphasis)
so who is going to force me to downsize?
theres a little thing in america called liberty.
its guarenteed by something you might be interested in protecting as an american - called the bill of rights...
if its just a market thing then its not forced.
YOU ALLWAYS HAVE A CHOICE IN AMERICA.
youre gonna FORCE me to Give up driving the hummer, huh?
tax gasoline and blow the money on big government?
nope - ill get another job if it means enough to me.
by the way i can allways vote....
no american is ever forced.
the idea that government can outright opress for some interest OR that the government gan bite the hand that feeds it is all well and good untill the CITIZEN jerks back on the leash.
government controlling people is not democracy.
its north korea.
RP what country have you been livin in?
come back to America.
this eropean superiority stuff youve been listening to is just a stealth thing to get you to bend over and give up your rights like they did in europe.
i dont think youre gonna fall for it.
i dont think you like the idea of the government telling you what you can and cant do, while opening your wallet whenever it pleases.
ease back a bit now, and think.
If tax subsidies weren't intended to promote certain behavior, then what is the point of them? You get tax deductions for donating to goodwill to encourage donations. You don't expect miracles, as I've said again and again, you simply discontinue the practice of subsidizing breeding and punishing having less children. People can have as many children as they want, they just have to pay for them themselves, which discourages couples from having more than 2 children. Furthermore, repeal anchor baby laws no other first world countries still have. Simple legistlation, a couple drops of ink, and it can't hurt. Voila.rpvitiello said:
Alright, and what would you have accomplished? THINK. You'd simply have overcrowding by then. What are the results of that? (scroll up for answer) Indians are EXTREMELY frugal, and they have to be, living off $4K anual salary a year. Awesome huh! BIG ECONOMY. Its everything you could have dreamed for. Sigh...rpvitiello said:
Usually when someone posts something after quoting orionlion82, it means they are addressing said comment by orionlion82... go crawl back into your $400,000 big city sardine can.rpvitiello said:
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feel free to clarify that on PM, i been up since before 5am and i dont see what youre getting at. ...and its right about bedtime, so im not thinkin as well and dont see...flipside.Ducman69 said:Usually when someone posts something after quoting orionlion82, it means they are addressing said comment by orionlion82... go crawl back into your $400,000 big city sardine can.
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Ok let me clarify. Americans NEVER downsize unless they HAVE to for economic reasons. It is American culture to buy as big a house, as big a car, and as wasteful item as you can afford just because. The market dictating higher prices is usually the only thing that “forces” an American to downsize.orionlion82 said:
The whole idea of saving and investing money is a strange concept. People in the US spend EVERY dime they have on stuff they don’t need just because it is a status symbol.
I rather live in a country where I still have freedom to express my self, breath clean air, be healthy, that to live in a country where I can buy what every I want, but I live in an unhealthy environment, have inadequate healthcare, and I cant say something anti government without being called a “socialist” or terrorist and am silenced by the government.
I think it is more important to be able to publicly question the government (to make sure it keeps things honest and fair) than to only be allowed to buy what every I want (and not be able to “confront” the government on any issues
OK duc you are basing your argument on trying to convince me we should not be subsidizing people popping out kids. I never said I disagree with you on that, and I never said people should just keep popping out kids. The thing is you see NO economic value to people having more kids, where as even though I don’t agree with the policy, I can see there is some logic behind why they still encourage people to have kids. (just as I see many reasons why people should not have kids too)Ducman69 said:If tax subsidies weren't intended to promote certain behavior, then what is the point of them? You get tax deductions for donating to goodwill to encourage donations. You don't expect miracles, as I've said again and again, you simply discontinue the practice of subsidizing breeding and punishing having less children. People can have as many children as they want, they just have to pay for them themselves, which discourages couples from having more than 2 children. Furthermore, repeal anchor baby laws no other first world countries still have. Simple legistlation, a couple drops of ink, and it can't hurt. Voila.
Alright, and what would you have accomplished? THINK. You'd simply have overcrowding by then. What are the results of that? (scroll up for answer) Indians are EXTREMELY frugal, and they have to be, living off $4K anual salary a year. Awesome huh! BIG ECONOMY. Its everything you could have dreamed for. Sigh...
Usually when someone posts something after quoting orionlion82, it means they are addressing said comment by orionlion82... go crawl back into your $400,000 big city sardine can.
And duc you keep comparing poor overcrowded 3rd world countries, to one of the least densely populated first world counties. Even if the US population spiraled out of control we are a long way off from even reaching the population density of a first world western Europe country. Also lets take Japan, it has almost no natural resources to speak of, and an insane population density, yet I don’t see them living off $4,000 US$ a year. That argument that a lower population density automatically equals a better standard of living does not hold up. If India was a more modern country with a decent economy they would live like they do in Japan. Everything would be expensive, and it would still be crowded, but they would have modern homes, running water, modern appliances, modern entrapment and a modern transportation system.
And what $400,000 big city sardine can do you speak of? Most condos around here are 1,800 to 3,500 sq ft. Isn’t that about average for Americans? A small apartment in Florida was about the same size as a small apartment here. A big house in Florida was SMALL for a big house up here, “big” usually means a 4,500sq ft house of FINISHED living space (well also have extra unfinished attics and basements that are not counted as living space in the north, space southern houses don’t have at all. (and I use Florida because that is the southern state I have the most experience visiting.
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thats a pretty surprising comment for someone that lives that close to wall street. - which would be a ghost town if all americans really were that stupid. - its not the rich elite either. anyone can invest and win in america. being STUPID WITH MONEY is apples and oranges.rpvitiello said:
god bless america then. woohoo!rpvitiello said:
i liked the statement initially.
...except being one sided, partisan and advocating beliefs over reason, reality and the first amendment.
in case you havnt noticed free speech is a two way street.
allways has been allways will be.
the good guys and bad guys change over time.
no matter what i can still say my peace without advocating censorship for the "bad guy"
as an american i would like to keep it that way.
i bet you would too!
even if it makes you whine about it -you dissrevice america by claiming you are being sensored and called names and will give up your rights because it hurts too much to wave your flag.
stand up then. america did not form magically on the backs of whining victims.
be an american and think and speak for yourself constructively!
when the government TELLS YOU what is honest and fair i bet youll change your tune and vote with what you have left - your wallet...rpvitiello said:
the rest is between you and good ol duc...
love to hear your thoughts.
its our country and our dollar.
dont forget it.
oil or not.
edit:
cool i guessed at and learned multi quotes! so tedious!
probaly wont bother later on...
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Well based on the average credit card debt, and average savings I would venture out to say allot of Americans are that stupid. People going out and spending every last dime they have on cars and houses, and electronics helps the US economy because it is making big businesses make money, and makes stockholders money who turn around and buy expensive toys etc.. This exchange of money is what drives the US economy. It leaves the average american in a VERY poor financial shape. Allot of them also finance EVERYTHING. TV's, cars, furniture, clothing etc through store cards, credit cards, home equity loans, etc... On a house the interest is at least a tax deduction and relatively low, but on all that other stuff the company makes a fair chunk of money form the VERY high interest rate they charge people that "have" to have something right now, and pay WAY more than the product is worth to get it NOW even though they can't afford it.orionlion82 said:
Using a credit card to finance something you need to function, in an emergency, or is used for work to make you money is one thing. Any other reason is a BAD reason to finance stuff and pay interest.
our economy is based on a very aggressive kind of spending and consumerism, for better or worse.
people in the US very often vote and get involved in government solely for there own benefit. I don’t think very many people sit down and actually make a political issue over something that is for the good of all people, like maybe solving homelessness, improving education etc.. People vote based on how much they are taxed, and what ever saves them the most money, and gets them the most services. They could give a rats ass about anyone else. All they want is as much money as possible to themselves to go spend every last dime on stuff in stores.
Our society is based on consumerism, and more and more that is all people care about. One of the original principals of the US was to protect the minority from the majority, but in many ways I see the majority wishing to impose its will on other people. No one gives a dam about anyone but themselves.
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who says americans HAVE to live beyond their means?rpvitiello said:
they work for their money and they CHOOSE to spend it.
if people CHOOSE to buy something they cant afford, who is at fault?
remember they have bills to pay.
they CHOOSE to be stupid with money, and as a taxpayer,
why should i support that behaivour with government bailouts?
well, yeah - it IS america, you ARE allowed to be stupid with money IF YOU WANT. thats no one elses responsibility but your own.rpvitiello said:
not mine.
but again, THIS IS AMERICA - instead of CHOOSING DEBT you can CHOOSE to save MONEY instead of going into debt when things happen so you HAVE money to take care of sudden emergencies and bills. by doing that - you allso CHOOSE *not* to give banks FREE MONEY for the PRIVELAGE of taking care of your bills.
if you LIVE on LESS THAN YOU MAKE you dont have to worry about debt.
you dont have to worry about not paying the power bill when the inevatable happens.
the price of gas goes up.
prices will ALLWAYS go up - cafe standards, oil shale, market speculation included.
theres no magic trap.
credit or not spending more than you make only causes problems.
you live within your means and the price of oil is easy to shrug off.
oil shale is no magic bullet.
the REAL PRICE OF OIL only matters if you are considering investing in it.
if you worry about it then its a clue you have financial problems.
its not because of the environment if you drive a focus.
its one of the greenest cars america has.
not particurlarly fuel effficient, but better than most cars.
we are the boss, we hold the leash and WE get what we pay for.rpvitiello said:
theres nothing magic about that.
if WE lead the country down the wrong road, WE might just figure it out, and WE might just find a better direction.
i just dont really see why this canadian oil shale is as big of an issue as its made to be. if we started on it tomarrow,
prices would be right back to normal in 6 months.
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Jesus, we found a long-winded diametrically-opposite twin...a foil, if you will. This thread isn't even fun anymore.
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hahah! HEY!FocusOnPunk said:
RP is a great guy! no doubt id chill with him any day!
but i think its great we go back and forth.
theres a beauty in that kind of disagreement.
do we mix it up and have words? SURE!
but is it personal or do i hold it against the guy?
hahaha, yeah right. pfffft!
its a PRIVELIDGE - no - a RIGHT- to have a good meaty argument without being snotty and childish with another american.
you might find it tiresome, but i think its a GREAT EXAMPLE of everything that is right with america.
youre wellcome to sit on the sidelines.
thats your right too.
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He he, I don’t expect many people to fully agree with me, and that is the point of a debate. You should be able present an argument and perhaps learn some new facts that can adjust how you see something. U need to get other peoples perspective on stuff to really understand the issue.orionlion82 said:
Hell me and Duc are a good example of that, we live in VERY different parts of the US, and thus have VERY different opinions on certain issues, where as other ones we both agree 100% with each other.
Sometimes people on here see the same issue as a problem, and want the same solution, but see a different way to get there, maybe BOTH are the right way, or maybe both ideas have a fundamental flaw that the other person reveals.
I like long all out out complex debates, it is the kind of person I am. Some of my closest friends have been simply people I can have a great debate with!
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ROFL!
Oh come on in your dreams buddy!
Oh come on in your dreams buddy!
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