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#41 ·
Once again rpvitiello you have shown you have no understanding of the auto industry at all. Profits on low volume vehicles are not going to do ANYTHING for Ford right now. Selling them is the RIGHT thing to do. In retrospect I bet they wish they had never DUMPED the money into them to begin with. Their current strategy will allow them to BUILD better products with Lincoln and Ford brands without concern of overlap with other brands. Keeping Volvo also makes sense because they can now enhance Volvo and take to a higher level.
 
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#42 ·
The problem isn't union or non-union, management or worker. It's the fact both got lazy. I work in a union doing sheetmetal so i understand that a union is a good thing for me. At the same time though my union doesn't support slackers or people who produce low quality work. I've seen guys get let go for slacking and the union doesn't say a word becasue they don't want to be associated with that type of person. At the same time my dad works for Ford in head office for Canada. I see it from his point to. He hasn't gotten a year end bonus for the last five or so years.

I think the union should clean house of negotiators and slackers and the top executives should take a pay hit. If both sides don't do something then no one will be working for these companies anymore.

That's all i have to say. Merry Christmas
 
#43 ·
EggYolkBill said:
Once again rpvitiello you have shown you have no understanding of the auto industry at all. Profits on low volume vehicles are not going to do ANYTHING for Ford right now. Selling them is the RIGHT thing to do. In retrospect I bet they wish they had never DUMPED the money into them to begin with. Their current strategy will allow them to BUILD better products with Lincoln and Ford brands without concern of overlap with other brands. Keeping Volvo also makes sense because they can now enhance Volvo and take to a higher level.
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The US car companies TRIED to go after sheer volume to make money and it DOES NOT WORK. The volume game is failing because people are demanding higher end, and nicer cars in the US. I believe the last statistic I read was the average new car in the US now costs $35,000

BMW, Mercedies, and all those companies seam to have no problem making high end products that are designed to make a PROFIT, and not designed to simply be sold in volume.

I agree dumping billions into Jag and the other car companies with no clear direction was a BAD idea, but they already did it. They are giving these companies ALLOT of R&D that they are about to sell to a COMPETATOR for pennies on the dollar. Who ever buys jaguar for $2billion is getting about $10billion in R&D for free, and will turn around and sell those products at a lower price that ford did and undercut them with there own technology.

They needed to clearly define there products years ago, introduce new tech on the premium brands first (where high prices for new tech is a good thing) and then work on economics of scale on having the tech trickle down onto cheaper cars.

Ford also had NO marketing strategy to really unify the image of the company. GM did a much better job of having people see Pontiac, and Chevy etc as the same company. Ford is so disjointed people have no idea what brand is or is not ford.

Most of fords brands logos were ovals, just like the parent company. I would have started making ALL company badges on an oval and marketed all the brands as “the ford oval” trademark it so no matter WHAT particular brand you got, Volvo, land rover, jaguar, u knew they were the same family of vehicles.

I also would have combined dealers like they did Lincoln mercury, but unlike those that made the same basic car, and each brand was a trim level, make it so that the SUV’s were badged “land rover” and the premium Mercedes and BMW fighter cars were “jaguar.”

Lincoln and mercury are US only brands, and have no worldwide presence. The car market is going global, and almost ANY premium car is sold on a worldwide basis. GM, and Chrysler would LOVE to have unified brands worldwide. That is why Daewoo in the EU was renamed Chevy, that is why the now split Daimler/Chrysler tried to push Dodge, Chrysler, Jeep in the EU. Ford HAD those brands already, and they are basically giving away the jaguar, land rover, and Aston brands for a mere few billion. It will cost FAR FAR more than that to try and launch a revitalized Lincoln and Mercury in other car markets and if those brands are to survive they WILL have to go global. U can not compete with luxury cars sold on a global scale, with a car model that is sold in only one market and has less volume. You just don’t have enough R&D for profit.

Does not really matter though because it is FAR to late for that. Ford is getting desperate and is unloading HUGE investments for pennies on the dollar ( and lucky and smart businesses with the cash on hand are JUMPING at the opportunity)

Ford is going to be a shadow of its former self soon
Chrysler LLC will be liquidated and completely sold off (the name will live on though by a company that buys the brand names)
The only US company I have some faith in is GM if they can get the economics of scale from global products. Opel/Vanhalx/ Saturn one brand. Pontiac/ Holden one brand, Cadillac, Chevy, Buick, Hummer all global brand. They need the worldwide volume to get economics of scale.
 
#44 ·
Ducman69 said:
If its just a management problem, why can Daimler run Mercedes so well, but despite billions in investments in Chrysler, can't improve plant efficiencies and margins, even after creating an almost all-new lineup?
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You've mentioned that a couple times and it's incorrect. The Daimler portion have their own fair share of problems. The MB brand hasn't done as greatly for the company as most people think and they've been bleeding in other areas like Smart (which has lost more for them since conception than Chrysler did). Daimler has been in pretty rough shape and is doing much the same as Cerberus is now doing with Chrysler in trying to sell off whatever they can. A few years ago they actually sold the DCX headquarters building in Stuttgart near where I was living and leased the complex back for something like 25 years. They've sold their Airbus stake and are getting to the point where there's not much left to sell.

The Germans definitely have their own ongoing problems and they also introduced many of them to Chrysler. When the "merger" was first announced it seems that many people don't remember that Chrysler was not only in the black but doing extremely well compared to the other US automakers. But Daimler bleeding them of development funding combined with other recent events prior to the DCX break-up (like the downturn in profitable truck/SUV sales) are what have more significantly contributed to the current state Chrysler has found itself in. I don't see much difference between Cerberus and Daimler. With Daimler we knew Chrysler would continue a downward spiral and Cerberus is an unknown in how they'll handle Chrysler long-term, but it's not looking great if Cerberus does what they know best.
 
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#45 ·
I don't know squat about making cars. I did work a teamster union job twice. I won't ever do it again. Management was irresponsible in it's behavior and the work force had a crappy attitude. The union itself was always worthless and at times extremely harmful and I suspect criminal (they were always being investigated). I blame it all on the union because it had never happened in the three non-union locations I had worked at previously.

In my experience, what ever benefit that I was supposed to receive from being in the union was given at a higher cost to me than it was worth compared to the non-union jobs. Further, the culture of the union "you can't fire me, I'll file a complaint!" led to the worst work ethic I'd been around in 25 years of working in that field.

I totally agree that the uaw should remove itself from a couple of lines like Saturn or Mercury to show it's benefit to the work force. If those lines make money and treat the workforce as well as others then why should the union force itself onto workers who don't benefit?
 
#46 ·
rpvitiello said:
The US car companies TRIED to go after sheer volume to make money and it DOES NOT WORK. The volume game is failing because people are demanding higher end, and nicer cars in the US. I believe the last statistic I read was the average new car in the US now costs $35,000

BMW, Mercedies, and all those companies seam to have no problem making high end products that are designed to make a PROFIT, and not designed to simply be sold in volume.

I agree dumping billions into Jag and the other car companies with no clear direction was a BAD idea, but they already did it. They are giving these companies ALLOT of R&D that they are about to sell to a COMPETATOR for pennies on the dollar. Who ever buys jaguar for $2billion is getting about $10billion in R&D for free, and will turn around and sell those products at a lower price that ford did and undercut them with there own technology.

They needed to clearly define there products years ago, introduce new tech on the premium brands first (where high prices for new tech is a good thing) and then work on economics of scale on having the tech trickle down onto cheaper cars.

Ford also had NO marketing strategy to really unify the image of the company. GM did a much better job of having people see Pontiac, and Chevy etc as the same company. Ford is so disjointed people have no idea what brand is or is not ford.

Most of fords brands logos were ovals, just like the parent company. I would have started making ALL company badges on an oval and marketed all the brands as “the ford oval” trademark it so no matter WHAT particular brand you got, Volvo, land rover, jaguar, u knew they were the same family of vehicles.

I also would have combined dealers like they did Lincoln mercury, but unlike those that made the same basic car, and each brand was a trim level, make it so that the SUV’s were badged “land rover” and the premium Mercedes and BMW fighter cars were “jaguar.”

Lincoln and mercury are US only brands, and have no worldwide presence. The car market is going global, and almost ANY premium car is sold on a worldwide basis. GM, and Chrysler would LOVE to have unified brands worldwide. That is why Daewoo in the EU was renamed Chevy, that is why the now split Daimler/Chrysler tried to push Dodge, Chrysler, Jeep in the EU. Ford HAD those brands already, and they are basically giving away the jaguar, land rover, and Aston brands for a mere few billion. It will cost FAR FAR more than that to try and launch a revitalized Lincoln and Mercury in other car markets and if those brands are to survive they WILL have to go global. U can not compete with luxury cars sold on a global scale, with a car model that is sold in only one market and has less volume. You just don’t have enough R&D for profit.

Does not really matter though because it is FAR to late for that. Ford is getting desperate and is unloading HUGE investments for pennies on the dollar ( and lucky and smart businesses with the cash on hand are JUMPING at the opportunity)

Ford is going to be a shadow of its former self soon
Chrysler LLC will be liquidated and completely sold off (the name will live on though by a company that buys the brand names)
The only US company I have some faith in is GM if they can get the economics of scale from global products. Opel/Vanhalx/ Saturn one brand. Pontiac/ Holden one brand, Cadillac, Chevy, Buick, Hummer all global brand. They need the worldwide volume to get economics of scale.
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You like to write books without really saying anything. Ford is not looking to sell in greater volume, they are looking to make the volumes THEY ALREADY SELL better. They need to improve their core and the products from Jag, LR, etc... only serve to reduce their core, volume products to a lower level of product. With those brands gone they can now focus on improving the core products and the Ford image.
 
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#47 · (Edited)
Well I am a Union worker not UAW but UFCW, and I also work with a bunch of Teamsters. Our werehouse people USED to be Teamsters now they are non-english speaking immigrants and I can tell you this, the quality of the goods has gone downhill. It seems that we get MORE and MORE damaged product than we ever have before. The old saying that you get what you pay for, most certainly applies here.

Now as far as the UAW is concerned I know several people that work in the Corvette plant in Bowling Green, KY. I used to help there part time when I needed a little extra cash, I made $20/hr. driving vettes from the plant to the parking lot! As far as I am concerned the workers there get paid ENTIRELY TOO MUCH for how fast and hard they are working. When you can put a car together while holding a cup of coffee in your hand and not manage to spill it and still make $50-$60/hour than something is wrong. Am I saying that they MAKE TOO MUCH, no I think they should be expected to do more to make that much. Make them Multitask, not to the point where quality becomes an issue but enough to keep them busy.

And as far as Unions being a bad thing, I say NO, work ethic has nothing to do with being Union or not. It has to do with the way people are raised. For example, I make DECENT money, it buys me what I want and what I need, I make this much because I CAN DO ANYTHING at my job. I proved myself and showed that I AM NEEDED, not saying that I cant be replaced, everyone can but Joe Blow off the street cannot come in and do the same job that I do without years of training. This is one major problem with the UAW. With minor training new people could put a windsheild in, put a door on, operate a computer that controls the equipment, ETC. To me that is really unskilled labor. Not saying that it would be perfect from the new person, but even EXPERIENCED people goof up, or dont care, and make sub par product. It would just be a percentage game to see who would produce QUALITY product more CONSISTANTLY.

Okay everyone have at and feel free to Chastise me!!!
 
#48 ·
Hey Deacon, sounds like you have actually been there so I will take your word for it on a lot of this. I see those 50 and 60 dollars an hour thrown around but when I do research on the subject, I don't see UAW mambers with that kind of wage. This little blurb discusses it:

Implications: The media often overstates the wages of autoworkers by using figures that that the OEMs provide. Autoworker wages may even be lower today due to changes in staffing and the OEMs Special Attrition Programs

Analysis:
In the media, we often see UAW wages overstated especially in comparisons to foreign transplants. According to UAW, average straight-time pay for assembly workers is $27.81 per hour and $32.32 per hour for skilled trades in 2006. This number is even lower in 2007 given the Special Attrition Program, the tiering of wages, and dramatic increase in temporary and contract workers in assembly plants today.

While thses are good wages, they are far from the figures that get people foaming at the mouth. Amoung people that you know personally, what kind of hourly were they making? I know there are cases in which people get so much OT that they make 80k but that is not the same as making it on 40 hours a week.
 
#49 · (Edited)
Like I said this was at the Corvette plant maybe highend car = higher wages I am not for sure. Alot of the guys and gals had been there a LONG time. I did that job for a little extra money in college, and getting paid $20/hour to drive vettes was just friggin' SWEET!!!!!!:thumbup:

Most did not work just straight time they work 6 days week, but then again I think everyone should tour the place. They are not getting in that big of a hurry. Its not like they are just standing there but they are not bustin their as either. If I had to guess straight time would be about $35-40/hour as an average. A lot of people did not like to talk about what they make per hour just mostly on what new boat or diesel truck they just bought. You had a few but most of them had 10 years or less there, which isnt much compare to 30+ years. $40/hour is really good money considering the cost of living is not a lot in that area. I mean come on I got $20/hour and the only job requirements were: License and abel to drive a stick.
 
#50 ·
Thanks deacon. I work in an environment where there are people that make 26 bucks and hour and mostly DO bust their asses. With forced overtime some of them make 75k a year. But I suspect some people see that 75k a year and think that is due to them make 35 bucks ano hour when it is not.

In the case of the people that I know that make that 75k a year working mandatory overtime, I suspect they spend most of that money on the ulcers and heart conditions they develop having to work so much.
 
#51 · (Edited)
Where I work, OT is not required but it is easier to work it than to take the grief of not getting the job done. Even though we have a few that do not work ANY OT and still get treated like the are royalty. I think management must feel sorry for them, or just do not care because they do sub par work anyways they have just been there forever!

I really dont mind the OT but then I am also 26, even though 60+ hours a week doesnt leave me with much free time. :( I also work that much because I like to see the job done and keep everyone off of our asses!:rolleyes:
 
#52 · (Edited)
CheaperSleeper said:
Thanks deacon. I work in an environment where there are people that make 26 bucks and hour and mostly DO bust their asses. With forced overtime some of them make 75k a year. But I suspect some people see that 75k a year and think that is due to them make 35 bucks ano hour when it is not.

In the case of the people that I know that make that 75k a year working mandatory overtime, I suspect they spend most of that money on the ulcers and heart conditions they develop having to work so much.
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There is no such thing as forced overtime.

If they don't like the job offer, they need only provide the business two-weeks notice in order to collect their last paycheck. Otherwise, they can just not show up tomorrow. There is no force used, just a mutual agreement to work lots of hours in exchange for certain pay.

They have every right to start their own business or polish up their resume and look for other jobs, and they can even do so while employed at your office.

PS: And regarding Mercedes, they have been doing just great with a long trend of increasing stocks until shortly after the Daimler Chrysler merger, when it became obvious to all that nobody could rescue the unionized operation no matter how much money you threw at the problem and how much management they replaced. Chrysler is the only thing that was hemorrhaging money for them, as Mercedes sales were neck and neck with BMW, their long time rival and direct competitor. That is why Chrysler is worth so very little now, as despite the value of the brand name, its been made clear that the new buyer will have to negotiate with the union as part of the deal. Its like an otherwise attractive middle-aged woman that has five extremely rowdy and out of control boys in the house and an ex in prison due to be released on early parole soon. Chrysler itself isn't bad, but who wants that baggage?
 
#55 ·
Ducman69 said:
There is no such thing as forced overtime.

If they don't like the job offer, they need only provide the business two-weeks notice in order to collect their last paycheck. Otherwise, they can just not show up tomorrow. There is no force used, just a mutual agreement to work lots of hours in exchange for certain pay.

They have every right to start their own business or polish up their resume and look for other jobs, and they can even do so while employed at your office.
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People also have a right to be treated fairly in the workplace for any job Duc. You free market people think the world is so peachy and there are the gazillion jobs in their neighborhood and there are no hardships to be considered when a person is all but forced to take a job they hate for the sake of just having one.

Employers collectively prey on this idea. Especially manual labor types (a job that someone has to do or the inferstructure would collapse). My brother is forced to work overtime. If he doesn't they find other ways to make his life hell without firing him.

Hell, they've also effectively found a way to steal their overtime by canceling annual reviews and giving them (manual shop labor types only as that is where the most overtime gets logged) bi-annual "wage increase" checks based on a 40hr week when he works 50+.

There need to be laws in place to block companies from ripping off it biggest assets for the hopes of making a few extra thousands a year when the company is already worth multi-millions.

That whole free market ideology that you spout off about is just a tool to screw people who actually need the job they have. This is a problem.

A second thing...when a person is working their ass off 60+ hours a week of manual labor, when is it exactly they are supposed to be donning a new suit interviewing for a new job?

With all this said, you and I both agree that, in todays age, unions are useless.

What we need are better labor laws that favor the worker at least as much as they favor the employer.
 
#56 ·
Kona you speak a lot of truth. Unfortunately we do not all live in such a "Ducky" world as Duc does, so some of us have to actually "WORK" for a living. Unions arent what they used to be I will attest to that but I would rather work for a Unionized company and have decent benefits and far pay, than work for Wal-Mart get abused and poor pay, my job may not be as good as some others but it could always be worse.
 
#57 · (Edited)
Well, "Ducky" likes his job, so will continue to invest in certifications and adhere to a strong work ethic to better himself and compete in our modern global market, ensuring that he gets higher pay in a prosperous industry that will stick around rather than boosting India's economy with another outsourced service.

The UAW leeches can continue to use extortion to milk the industry all they like, as soon enough they will have solved the problem themselves, by destroying the American automotive industry and with it their jobs, plain and simple. More and more plants aren't being opened in Canada and Mexico because they just LOVE the weather there, and more and more of our products aren't imported because we don't know how to make them. So the UAW guys with their ridiculous wages can laugh themselves all the way to the bank as their industry continues to downsize and outsource to stay afloat. Ford already closed plants and cut about 30,000 jobs, and GM has gone above and beyond that, and Chrysler is already KIA for all intents and purposes.

Keep it up. :) They'll probably be able to get jobs again, but instead of working for an American business, it'll be in a non-union Honda or Toyota plant, with a lot of the profits from that industry being funneled right back to Japan. The emperor salutes your efforts! :thumbup:
deaconblue23 said:
There is just no way to please some people..... I will let everyone decide for themselves as to whom I am speaking of........
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UAW slobs? :p
 
#58 ·
I am glad you like your job, most days I like mine. But unions are (or were your choice) in place to "keep" employers from "abusing the employees. Like I said my job is unionized and all that really means to me is; better wages, better benefits, and not being able to let me go over some BS reason like so many jobs to do so many people(i.e. My father-in-law got laid off after 30+ years of work, because he missed .01% on a quality control test).

So you keep calling Union employees leeches and I will just keep telling you to enjoy your "Ducky" little world!
 
#59 ·
When I was still a brewer, you were forced to join the Union. While they couldn't actually make you join, they were gonna' take my money as Due's regardless, so you might as well join. I didn't get paid any more, and they didn't represent me. So I'm not sure what the point of the Union was. Eventually the Union left (got kicked out, whatever), and guess what? Nothing changed. I still got the same bonuses, still had health insurance. The market is competitive, if you're really good at what you do, somebody will pay you money to do it for them.

Secondly, I believe 96% of the American work force is not Union. The 4% that is are mostly Government workers and carmaker workers. I don't know, call me crazy, but those two entities are the most inefficient screwed up workplaces I know of. Purely anecdotal, I don't work for the Goverment or a Car Maker, I work in a food processing plant.

I also used to work construction when I was younger, and all the places I worked for were open shops, I got paid good, and had health benefits. So, from a personal perspective (which don't mean much, I know), I don't "Get" Unions. They are going to hurt us long term, and that ain't cool.
 
#60 · (Edited)
EggYolkBill said:
You like to write books without really saying anything. Ford is not looking to sell in greater volume, they are looking to make the volumes THEY ALREADY SELL better. They need to improve their core and the products from Jag, LR, etc... only serve to reduce their core, volume products to a lower level of product. With those brands gone they can now focus on improving the core products and the Ford image.
Click to expand...
Ford does NOT want to sell at the current volume, they have been dropping volume for the last few years as they lose market shares. That is exactly the problem jaguar had, they wanted to make it a VOLUME brand and released cars that got volume, but did not fit the brand. Now that they realized the problem (too much volume at the cost of the brands integrity) Jaguar is headed for a turn around.

Ford is in the same boat, it is a VOLUME brand. The newest cars are “nice enough” but they still cut corners. The fusion is not on the same level as the Camry, Accord, or even Malibu,.

They NEED to downsize the FORD, Lincoln and Mercury brands, yet they are selling off other brands and play to try and boost volume for those brands.

Tell me how Lincoln, or Mercury were the good brands to keep? They have almost no international presence, and launching them in the EU and other countries will cost BILLIONS, and that is after ford KILLED OF those brands in every other country buy the US.

I don’t see how a US brand is at all useful in this day and age.

Jaguar, and Land rover were HIGH price products, they would allow for R&D of new stuff in those brands, and then ford could work on making new developments more cost effective to launch in the Core “ford” brand. Most companies don’t launch the latest car tech in there cheapest car, they launch it in the high end stuff that can support the high cost of that tech. They don’t introduce the stuff in cheaper cars until they get the economics of scale down.

IMO the problem was fords culture. They could not even get the FORD brand on the same page from region to region, FORGET about the different BRANDS working together on an international basis.

KonaZXIII said:
People also have a right to be treated fairly in the workplace for any job Duc. You free market people think the world is so peachy and there are the gazillion jobs in their neighborhood and there are no hardships to be considered when a person is all but forced to take a job they hate for the sake of just having one.
...
What we need are better labor laws that favor the worker at least as much as they favor the employer.
Click to expand...
If you live in an area where the ONLY job you can get is a crappy manual labor job don’t you think it is time to move?

Now if the reason that is the only job you can get is that you have no real education and you have no valuable skills that is no one’s fault but your own. I do NOT support people being paid high wages just because they cant do any better without an education. That is your incentive to get out there and IMPROVE yourself. Unskilled jobs will just be moved to cheaper labor markets if you start getting paid too much for what you do. If you want a better job, get an education so you have OPTIONS of where to work.

No I agree some laws should be better, and there should be a minimum hourly pay you get after all is said and done, but I don’t think you should get GREAT pay either for working an unskilled manual labor job.

deaconblue23 said:
Kona you speak a lot of truth. Unfortunately we do not all live in such a "Ducky" world as Duc does, so some of us have to actually "WORK" for a living. Unions arent what they used to be I will attest to that but I would rather work for a Unionized company and have decent benefits and far pay, than work for Wal-Mart get abused and poor pay, my job may not be as good as some others but it could always be worse.
Click to expand...
There lies the problem IF unions simply insured FAIR pay and benefits EVERY person in the US should wind up in a union, that is not the case though with the UAW. They fight for UNFAIR wages that are exurbanite , and choke a companies ability to be competitive.

I said before there should be laws mandating a LIVING WAGE for people who work a 40 hour work week, so the government does not wind up subsidizing wal-marts labor, but people doing a job that does not even require a GED, and that has no stress or anything associated should not pay double the US’s average individual income. There has to be some kind of middle ground.
 
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