Confidential: For FJ Eyes Only

Queen Jade · Jun 22, 2012

Binky said:
Right - there are plenty of us.

I myself am not a wagon lover - nor do I prefer the looks of the ST wagon to the hatch, as some here seem to - but I have a family now, and my SVT ZX5 is starting to feel quite small (especially with that subwoofer in the hatch). The MKIII hatch will not improve on that for me (it may, in fact, be LESS spacious inside), so I'll have to put my lust aside and resist the ST hatch. But the wagon, of course, would be perfect and irresistible.

I suppose I would look at the new Escape if a stick were available, but we know the deal on that.

I'll give Ford a model year to consider bringing the (even non-ST) wagon here, and then I guess it'd be a Jetta Sportwagen TDi for me. (It's my understanding that VW can't keep any variant of the Sportswagen in stock, so I fail to understand why Ford doesn't think a Focus wagon would sell well enough here to justify - probably the same logic that led them to cancel a hatch for the '08 US "Focus"... Anyone see more '12 sedans around than hatches? I thought not.)

I rarely see Jetta wagons here, but the Focus sedan vs the hatch is a 50/50 split. I also see far more Fiesta sedans than hatches. Just my own observation. Before Ford will foot the bill for the retooling, the ST hatch needs to sell well. Like Ron said, if we hope to get more performance variety, we as a market have to buy whats available to us. Think of it this way; mom makes dinner...you turn your nose up at it. She isn't going to make you something else...you simply won't eat.

teamDFL · Jun 22, 2012

Nickgt40 said:
Wrong side of the bed this morning?

Don't you know it is completely unreasonable for you to actually expect a car to meet your needs? We should just be thankful for what we get. After all, all you are doing is paying for it.

Some people here just baffle me.

Redwake · Jun 22, 2012

tire kicking yea thats me.. because i like to keep my dollars

awesome car though id buy it if i wanted to buy it :lol:

maybe i will after i drive one who knows

teamDFL · Jun 22, 2012

Queen Jade said:
Think of it this way; mom makes dinner...you turn your nose up at it. She isn't going to make you something else...you simply won't eat.

Perhaps, but your analogy is not valid here. I am not a child beholden to a parent who is the sole source of food. If Ford doesn't give me what I want, I will take my money somewhere else.

I will not spend my money to make Ford happy; I will spend it to make me happy.

Ford provides me what I want, a car of certain specifications, and I provide Ford that they want, my money.

SVTF4243 · Jun 22, 2012

Queen Jade said:
..Think of it this way; mom makes dinner...you turn your nose up at it. She isn't going to make you something else...you simply won't eat.

Put another way, Ford will need to see ST brand selling.
IF it meets or exceeds expectations then they will roll the dice for more niches related to this.
Either way $$ makes it happen or not.

eff said:
Thanks for your answers Ron. Great that Mr.Herrmann is in attendance as he very approachable and will speak quite frankly which is rare from this level of employee.

Re the answer regarding reasoning behind no Focus wagon variant in North American being tooling costs contradicts the Ford media reports regarding monies spent on MAP & LAP to be (in Fords media words) the most flexible final assembly plants in FoMoCo global network. One of the features touted by Ford for its new global C-segment platform is that it is driving down development cost by building 10 different bodystyles on the architecture using many of the same mechanical components.
If the MAP tooling costs reasoning are valid, then we can move over to LAP (another assembly point for the same global platform ) retooled $600 million investment, which is now capable of producing up to six different vehicles at the same time.

My assumption would be based on the old thinking and lack of confidence in its product line up that the Focus wagon would steal sales form the higher profit making Escape and to some extent Edge.

As mentioned I find it impossible to believe Ford when setting its business plan with MAP & LAP to make them the most flexible final assembly plants in their GLOBAL network, that tooling costs would be
a road block to allow it to quickly adjust its product mix to shifting market conditions.
In simple terms if North Americans want a Focus wagon variant, then with a flick of a switch at MAP or LAP should be quite painless to Fords bottom line to add a wagon to the assembly line mix.

I am glad to see the thinking around global vs regional manufacturing decisions on more commonality and shared parts.

Queen Jade · Jun 22, 2012

teamDFL said:
Perhaps, but your analogy is not valid here. I am not a child beholden to a parent who is the sole source of food. If Ford doesn't give me what I want, I will take my money somewhere else.

I will not spend my money to make Ford happy; I will spend it to make me happy.

Ford provides me what I want, a car of certain specifications, and I provide Ford that they want, my money.

Have you purchased any brand new cars from Ford since the purchase of your OEM manufactured diff-less 2000 ZX3?

teamDFL · Jun 22, 2012

Queen Jade said:
Have you purchased any brand new cars from Ford since the purchase of your OEM manufactured diff-less 2000 ZX3?

It is a 2001.
Yes
2002 Focus Wagon
2005 Freestyle
2010 Fusion

I have waited a while for a car for me (the above were mostly or entirely for my wife) and I really thought the Focus ST was it. As you can see, I have a preference for Fords. But this is not the car I want.

FWIW, I was getting ready to buy an ITR at the time I bought the ZX3, but when we (happily) found out that my wife was pregnant, priorities changed. The lack of diff was an acceptable tradeoff for half price and more space.

Queen Jade · Jun 22, 2012

teamDFL said:
It is a 2001.
Yes
2002 Focus Wagon
2005 Freestyle
2010 Fusion

I have waited a while for a car for me (the above were mostly or entirely for my wife) and I really thought the Focus ST was it. As you can see, I have a preference for Fords. But this is not the car I want.

FWIW, I was getting ready to buy an ITR at the time I bought the ZX3, but when we (happily) found out that my wife was pregnant, priorities changed. The lack of diff was an acceptable tradeoff for half price and more space.

I can get on board with that. I'm pregnant with my second kid right now and also strongly considered an ST, but the Forester offers more space and utility for a lower price for me. Two kids, two dogs (one is massive) simply doesn't work in a 3 door. My big dog won't fit in a 5 door hatch. My entire family, including extended are Ford owners.

Husband (had an 88 Ranger as his first car then owned his own SVT Focus, plus he has a Ford F350 Superduty as a work truck)
Mom drives a Mountaineer but wants to trade it in for a new Mustang
Dad drives a Ranger now and its his 3rd in 15 years
Uncles drives an F-150
Brother 1 drove an Escort (before he sold it to move to NY)
Brother 2 drives a Mustang (currently for sale and bought my SVT)

The front of my parents' house when we are all together looks like a used Ford parking lot. :lol:

teamDFL · Jun 22, 2012

My kids are now both out of booster seats which has opened up a number of options. I also have two labs, and while the entire family has been in the ZX3 more than once, this was for a brief run to the park. On long trips, the Freestyle is a superlative family truckster. I was thinking of getting rid of the Fusion and picking up an ST. While the Fusion is quiet, smooth, economical and a great people mover for the four humans, it is bland and I don't really like sedans just on principle. Then, in 5 years, my ZX3 would transfer to my son to drive (he will be 16 which is scary since I posted about him being born on [FJ]) and the ST would be my play car.

The problem is, I look at the ST and for the money, I just don't get enough of what want. So new plan is keep the Fusion and let someone else take the depreciation on an ST, then pick one up in five years and have it be my play car when putting in an LSD won't be a big deal.*

Maybe I had unrealistic expectations of the ST, but some people here are just blind fanbois who are swinging from Ford's jock claiming that we should all just shut up and pay for what we don't want. Someone please explain to me how giving Ford my money for something I don't want will provide incentive for them to give me what I do want?

*-plan subject to change.

aerostudent · Jun 22, 2012

Ron,

After driving the ST do you have any regrets about getting the Abarth?

Comatose · Jun 22, 2012

Let me start by saying I don't consider myself a Ford fanboy who wants people to "stop complaining and buy it" - I just want to elucidate my reasons for deciding to buy the ST. If you don't like the car for any reason or can't afford/don't want to pay the cost of depreciation, you'll get no judgement from me. I feel that I'm getting a lot of car for my money with the ST and I hope I'm not proven wrong. I know I'm very fortunate to be in a financial position to be able to consider the purchase of a nice, new car when I know that's not realistic for a lot of people.

I've been anxiously awaiting the ST since the prototype was shown back in 2010 and started putting money away towards the car the next day. I didn't know exactly how the car was going to turn out, but I knew I wanted a hatchback. The lack of a 3 door didn't make a huge difference in my decision - my ZX3 is 3 door and it's fine, but I know that when hauling friends around I wish I had a 5 door (mainly because of the stupid seat configuration on the '00 ZX3*).

Part of my decision making process included factoring in the cost of the inevitable maintenance and repairs that will be required for long-term ownership. I really like dealing with Tousley Ford (I'm not aware of a better deal on OEM parts for other brands of car), so I figured I'd buy another Ford if they came out with a vehicle I liked.

My ultimate decision to buy the ST was based primarily on price, performance, and appearance. I bought my ZX3 sight unseen and I've loved it to this day. I'm willing to do the same with the ST based on all the positive reviews I've seen. It's comparable in cost and performance to the MS3 (at least on paper), not to mention better looking IMO, and it seems to out-perform the GTI and costs slightly less (in Canada). I really like the looks of the car and I love the performance blue colour. The price for the fully loaded ST3 (Canadian equivalent) is right in line with what I budgeted, so the day I found out it was coming to Canada I picked up the phone and ordered one.

Now, I'd like a mechanical limited-slip diff, I'd pass on myford touch, I don't need ambient lighting, I'd like the european LED taillights and the dark grey rims, I'd ditch the 'ST' logo on the backs of the seats, etc. etc. ad infinitum. That said, I still like the ST enough to buy it as it's offered.

* Begin Rant: There's a separate lever specifically for tilting the seat forward, but that lever does not allow the seat to slide forward at the same time. The main lever for adjusting the seatback only goes to full upright and doesn't allow the seat to fold forward for rear seat access. So not only does every single person getting into my car pull the wrong lever, even pulling the right lever only gets you halfway there. You still need to reach down to the base of the seat and disengage the position adjuster. Why have a separate lever for rear seat access that doesn't give you rear seat access?! 12 years later and this still drives me bonkers! End rant.

SVTF4243 · Jun 22, 2012

We all vote with our wallets. And it's a wise buyer that has a clear idea of the "must haves" for a purchase.
I think the message is Ford is cautious about how much new product is released at a given time.
The wagon & the LSD didn't make it in the first round of release, it will depend on the success of what is released for them to be considered for the future.
So while I wouldn't buy a car if it didn't have a key feature for me, it would bode well at least to support the initial launch.
From what I see ST stands do do very well.

teamDFL · Jun 22, 2012

SVTF4243 said:
So while I wouldn't buy a car if it didn't have a key feature for me, it would bode well at least to support the initial launch.

Honest question: is there a way for me to support Ford other than via product purchase that they care about? They are, after all, a for profit company and money is what matters.

Nickgt40 · Jun 22, 2012

teamDFL said:
Honest question: is there a way for me to support Ford other than via product purchase that they care about? They are, after all, a for profit company and money is what matters.

Exactly!

We're not talking down the mighty ST here, we're just simply stating we're not going to buy the car as is.

I've never done anything but rave at how quality of a car my focus has been during my ownership. I know of 2 people who bought a focus at my suggestion, I'm honestly not sure what you're expecting.

:dunno:

ScurrilousKnave · Jun 22, 2012

Binky said:
Anyone see more '12 sedans around than hatches? I thought not.)

Actually, around here at least half of the new Foci I see on the roads are the sedan variant, and I'm actually leaning closer to 65% or more. Granted, some of them are government or business vehicles.

Queen Jade said:
The front of my parents' house when we are all together looks like a used Ford parking lot. :lol:

Haha, sounds like my in-law's house:

Dad-in-law: Ranger/Fusion/Mustang GT
Mom-in-law: Escape
Sister-in-law: '08 Focus
Wife: '06 Focus

My Corolla is the odd man out! But I'll stop thread-jacking now...

Queen Jade · Jun 22, 2012

teamDFL said:
My kids are now both out of booster seats which has opened up a number of options. I also have two labs, and while the entire family has been in the ZX3 more than once, this was for a brief run to the park. On long trips, the Freestyle is a superlative family truckster. I was thinking of getting rid of the Fusion and picking up an ST. While the Fusion is quiet, smooth, economical and a great people mover for the four humans, it is bland and I don't really like sedans just on principle. Then, in 5 years, my ZX3 would transfer to my son to drive (he will be 16 which is scary since I posted about him being born on [FJ]) and the ST would be my play car.

The problem is, I look at the ST and for the money, I just don't get enough of what want. So new plan is keep the Fusion and let someone else take the depreciation on an ST, then pick one up in five years and have it be my play car when putting in an LSD won't be a big deal.*

Maybe I had unrealistic expectations of the ST, but some people here are just blind fanbois who are swinging from Ford's jock claiming that we should all just shut up and pay for what we don't want. Someone please explain to me how giving Ford my money for something I don't want will provide incentive for them to give me what I do want?

*-plan subject to change.

My daugther is 5 and won't be out of a booster seat for at least 4 more years due to laws and my big dog is the size of a Great Dane. :lol: He needs more space than the hatch of the new 2012 body can offer.

To help bridge the gap, the ST offers the most amenities and the most power compared to anything some have owned. Some see an LSD as a requisite and others see it as a luxury. The SVT should have came with one but I would have been satisfied with good software and completed wiring. Do I think the ST should have one? Absolutely. When I drive one in August at the hot lap even in San Francisco, I'll let you know how well it does without one.

Binky · Jun 22, 2012

Queen Jade said:
I rarely see Jetta wagons here, but the Focus sedan vs the hatch is a 50/50 split. I also see far more Fiesta sedans than hatches. Just my own observation.

Weird. Must be an East-coast thing (Jetta wagons). I'll admit that it may be a 50/50 sedan/hatch split I see with new Foci, but I rarely see Fiesta sedans (and, no, not because they're "invisible" or anything - few cars on the road escape my notice).

Anyway, my point was that Ford was allegedly saying "hatches don't sell" back when we were all grousing about their disappearance for 2008 - yet now they seem to be selling plenty of them (just like I still see plenty of MKI hatches out and about).

But maybe it's Middle America - where I seldom dare to venture - that doesn't buy hatches. Or wagons?

Binky · Jun 22, 2012

Great, here's one element of the SVTF's "character" I was hoping the ST would NOT maintain (from Autoweek):

"the car's turning radius is abominable. At one point during our drive, an otherwise routine U-turn required three back-and-forths to complete the 180, making the compact Focus ST feel as big as an Expedition."

But the summary's sweet:

"Ford's first truly global performance product exceeds our expectations, if not just in 0-to-60-mph times, then for the how little said 0-60 will cost you. Stickers for the Focus ST start at just $24,495; mid-level ST2 cars tack on $2,385, with top-of-the-line ST3 trims starting at $28,930. Compared with the five-door VW Golf R, which starts at $36,860, the Focus ST is a steal, delivering 90 percent of the performance, more features, better styling and a more refined package for more than $12,000 less. The five-door GTI aligns almost exactly on price but is down 52 hp and 63 lb-ft of torque and doesn't offer the same level of on-road chops as the ST. Even the Mazdaspeed 3, perhaps the most natural comparison, feels instantly dated next to the sharply styled and wonderfully refined Focus ST.

For now, the car to beat in the compact hot-hatch segment for all-around value and performance is the 2013 Ford Focus ST, hands down."

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20120621/carreviews/120629957#ixzz1yYAIYcZF

Let there be no further talk of wanting a Speed3 over this...

SVTF4243 · Jun 22, 2012

teamDFL said:
Honest question: is there a way for me to support Ford other than via product purchase that they care about? They are, after all, a for profit company and money is what matters.

Nickgt40 said:
Exactly!

We're not talking down the mighty ST here, we're just simply stating we're not going to buy the car as is.

I've never done anything but rave at how quality of a car my focus has been during my ownership. I know of 2 people who bought a focus at my suggestion, I'm honestly not sure what you're expecting.

:dunno:

Yes I hesitated writing that, it's a catch-22. I think both of you have been waiting for a long time for a car to have the technology you were looking for only to be disappointed.
It's a fine line to vent that and not come across as disgrunted. So how do you point out what is lacking a still be perceived as supportive? The only answer I'd have is it's all in how it's said. And this medium is subject to a lot of misinterpretation as you have seen.

Queen Jade · Jun 22, 2012

You couldn't give me a Mazdaspeed 3 or any other current generation Mazda. Its just too damn ugly.

Confidential: For FJ Eyes Only

Queen Jade

teamDFL

Redwake

teamDFL

SVTF4243

Queen Jade

teamDFL

Queen Jade

teamDFL

aerostudent

Comatose

SVTF4243

teamDFL

Nickgt40

ScurrilousKnave

Queen Jade

Binky

Binky

SVTF4243

Queen Jade

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