Ok trying to prevent further screw ups on my next build. So I run scca and I use a 2.3. Three motors have experienced three failures all I believe stemming from the number two rod losing oil pressure. Bearing fails and boom rod breaks and blows thru block. Big and expensive. So how hard do I run my motor. First every build has been with brand new parts. Proper break in yep, then track. So my red line is 7200rpm, the car weights 2700. I have a windage tray, an accusump and an oil cooler, mounted in front of the rad. So after three races this current motor experienced a failure at the number two rod. Water temp was 220, oil temp was 280, oil pressure was cold at 80 psi hot was 50 at 6000rpm. Anyone running hard with a 2.3, anyone experience a failure, anyone have great success care to share any secrets I keep missing so as to protect my next build. Yes Bds delete was on all three.
Duratec failure (High-Performance Engine Build Discussion)
msperber
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Ok trying to prevent further screw ups on my next build. So I run scca and I use a 2.3. Three motors have experienced three failures all I believe stemming from the number two rod losing oil pressure. Bearing fails and boom rod breaks and blows thru block. Big and expensive. So how hard do I run my motor. First every build has been with brand new parts. Proper break in yep, then track. So my red line is 7200rpm, the car weights 2700. I have a windage tray, an accusump and an oil cooler, mounted in front of the rad. So after three races this current motor experienced a failure at the number two rod. Water temp was 220, oil temp was 280, oil pressure was cold at 80 psi hot was 50 at 6000rpm. Anyone running hard with a 2.3, anyone experience a failure, anyone have great success care to share any secrets I keep missing so as to protect my next build. Yes Bds delete was on all three.
Re: Duratec failure
The most current failure took place with penzoil 5/40 syn. This was the oil we used after break in with joe Gibbs 5/30 break in oil with all the extra lubricant zinc for start up. Oil filters were removed after one hour of breakin and opened up to verify if anything stray had be captured and or found unusual. After one race we sent oil for analysis both from filter and pan. Nothing unusal found other than a higher than usual level of lead. Bearings were aluminum the name I don't have at hand. The prior engine was run with joe Gibbs breaking and then we moved to 5/20 valvoline full syn.
The most current failure took place with penzoil 5/40 syn. This was the oil we used after break in with joe Gibbs 5/30 break in oil with all the extra lubricant zinc for start up. Oil filters were removed after one hour of breakin and opened up to verify if anything stray had be captured and or found unusual. After one race we sent oil for analysis both from filter and pan. Nothing unusal found other than a higher than usual level of lead. Bearings were aluminum the name I don't have at hand. The prior engine was run with joe Gibbs breaking and then we moved to 5/20 valvoline full syn.
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Re: Duratec failure
I had my 2.3 blow up at midohio at an hpde. 3rd session 4th lap running hard. 2nd cyl rod. Had 163,xxx on it. Now i have a fusion 2.5 that i only ran one track day on. Mods to lower end are balance shaft delete with oil pan baffle. Motor has 50k in it. Will see what happens.
I had my 2.3 blow up at midohio at an hpde. 3rd session 4th lap running hard. 2nd cyl rod. Had 163,xxx on it. Now i have a fusion 2.5 that i only ran one track day on. Mods to lower end are balance shaft delete with oil pan baffle. Motor has 50k in it. Will see what happens.
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2,216 Posts
Re: Duratec failure
What are you running for a crank?
Any mods to the oil passages on the crank?
Was the rotating assembly balanced?
What are you running for a crank dampener?
Were the blocks align honed?
What oil pump are you running?
I think you need a heavier oil for race use....10 or 15w 30 or 40...I wouldn't run that on a stock duratec but since your clearances are monkied with anyway you should be able to run a heavier oil without adding undue stress to the crank/rods/oiling system (at least if you plan to run heavier oil from the start of the build this should be true...).
What are you running for a crank?
Any mods to the oil passages on the crank?
Was the rotating assembly balanced?
What are you running for a crank dampener?
Were the blocks align honed?
What oil pump are you running?
I think you need a heavier oil for race use....10 or 15w 30 or 40...I wouldn't run that on a stock duratec but since your clearances are monkied with anyway you should be able to run a heavier oil without adding undue stress to the crank/rods/oiling system (at least if you plan to run heavier oil from the start of the build this should be true...).
Re: Duratec failure
Ok some answers to those questions, ranger crank, eagle rods, wiesco pistons 20 over with total seal pistons. All oil passages on the crank were chamfered by the machine shop. Oil pump as the only one available is the factory unit, but we opened up the oil relief spring and shimmed it another .060 for more pressure. We also used a fusion gear on the pump as its 2 teeth less, more volume with the same pump. Rotating assembly was balanced by the machine shop. Crank pulley is the stock unit. The block was align bored and we also had a torque plate supplied to the shop. Do you know of an after market pump or another unit available? Windage tray and an accusump plumbed inline with an oil cooler. Please throw out more suggestions as any and all well be put to use. Thanks in advance as I just met with a renowned engine builder in my area for the next build for next year. Ordered a new keyed crank and new rods so far, sourced a new block and head.
Ok some answers to those questions, ranger crank, eagle rods, wiesco pistons 20 over with total seal pistons. All oil passages on the crank were chamfered by the machine shop. Oil pump as the only one available is the factory unit, but we opened up the oil relief spring and shimmed it another .060 for more pressure. We also used a fusion gear on the pump as its 2 teeth less, more volume with the same pump. Rotating assembly was balanced by the machine shop. Crank pulley is the stock unit. The block was align bored and we also had a torque plate supplied to the shop. Do you know of an after market pump or another unit available? Windage tray and an accusump plumbed inline with an oil cooler. Please throw out more suggestions as any and all well be put to use. Thanks in advance as I just met with a renowned engine builder in my area for the next build for next year. Ordered a new keyed crank and new rods so far, sourced a new block and head.
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2,216 Posts
Re: Duratec failure
How about a forged crank from Cosworth or a Mazdaspeed?
You could try having the crank nitrided but that may not save the bearings...just make the crank salvageable after the next failure.
Do you still have s pcv?
How about a forged crank from Cosworth or a Mazdaspeed?
You could try having the crank nitrided but that may not save the bearings...just make the crank salvageable after the next failure.
Do you still have s pcv?
Re: Duratec failure
I think 280* is a bit high on oil temp, especially with a cooler? Maybe remove the thermostat from the sandwich plate or cooler if you're running one, or go to a bigger cooler?
Thought about adding piston squirters to the block?
I think 280* is a bit high on oil temp, especially with a cooler? Maybe remove the thermostat from the sandwich plate or cooler if you're running one, or go to a bigger cooler?
Thought about adding piston squirters to the block?
Re: Duratec failure
cost becomes an issue and since the cosworth or Mazda unit wouldn't be on the spec line under the rules for my class I am sol. I will speak to the new shop about nitride. Heard of it but not really sure what it is?
Re: Duratec failure
Will speak to my new shop about squirters, and since this motor expired so dramatically a new larger cooler has been ordered. My cooler doesn't have a thermostat and we were using a sandwich plate that came with the cooler so no thermo there either unless I completely missed it. I was actually looking at using the escape oil cooler in addition to the new cooler but we think that we may go to a remote oil filter and have a more direct plumb line for the accusump system. Also going to make sure the new cooler is in a better flow of air to assist. The failure of this engine looks like a bearing clearence issue. At the pace we run factory specs are not working for us. Looking at the pistons and the other bearings thru out the engine it appears the rod bearings and the specs we ran were at fault. That and my stupid thought that it all sound ok as opposed to looking at all the info the gauges were telling me an shut it down.
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2,216 Posts
Re: Duratec failure
Nitride is a hardening process that drastically increased the surface hardness of the crank.
Nitride is a hardening process that drastically increased the surface hardness of the crank.
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2,216 Posts
Re: Duratec failure
Could you have crankcase pressure issues due to the pcv delete that are impacting oil flow?
I like your thought about the factory clearances not working...I think that's a good bet and the added cooling capacity is good insurance as well.
Could you have crankcase pressure issues due to the pcv delete that are impacting oil flow?
I like your thought about the factory clearances not working...I think that's a good bet and the added cooling capacity is good insurance as well.
Re: Duratec failure
We have a line from the removed PVC system routing the vapors and or fluid to a collection tank, additionally we have a line on the valve cover also routed to the same catch tank. Inspection of this after every run, especially on new motor break in is a regular service. We never have had an unusually large amount of blow by, actually so little its become a non issue. This is the only area I know of where I could have checked for high crankcase pressure, but its something now on the list to address with the builder. Please keep the questions coming as solving this issue of blowing up motors will help us all, my build of the car will always be an open book until you beat me then your turn to share.
)
We have a line from the removed PVC system routing the vapors and or fluid to a collection tank, additionally we have a line on the valve cover also routed to the same catch tank. Inspection of this after every run, especially on new motor break in is a regular service. We never have had an unusually large amount of blow by, actually so little its become a non issue. This is the only area I know of where I could have checked for high crankcase pressure, but its something now on the list to address with the builder. Please keep the questions coming as solving this issue of blowing up motors will help us all, my build of the car will always be an open book until you beat me then your turn to share.
)Re: Duratec failure
Well the season to start a new build has begun. The professional engine builder I have delivered my stuff to, which includes two expired short blocks from this year, three heads which two are stock and one that has been massaged and bunch of new parts which I include crank, rods, Pistons oil cooler, remote filter system and a complete motor which will be our core for the new build. This stock piece had 140k on it and my builder wanted to tear it down for some wear measurements. Off to the machine shop where we have found that the bearing clearances are at the high end of the allowable and that oversized bearings for this application are a pain to source. He believes that with the factory bearings and the aftermarket units we have used all without tangs or locator pins the main bearings may have shifted and with the tight specs the books call for just enough oil feeding alignment issues have played into a terrible case of lost oil to the number one or two mains. At the rpm we turn for long duration we get high temp, breakdown of oil and boom, my wallet gets torn up. This new unit being built is going to have the bearings pinned. Line bored and assembled to see if we achieve after assembly enough clearance to spin it hard. The tune we placed on the last two motors was more on the rich side for fuel, we plan on moving a little farther to the rich side until we can see some time and temp on this motor. Hope to be installing for the Xmas holiday and be on the dyno in Jan.
Well the season to start a new build has begun. The professional engine builder I have delivered my stuff to, which includes two expired short blocks from this year, three heads which two are stock and one that has been massaged and bunch of new parts which I include crank, rods, Pistons oil cooler, remote filter system and a complete motor which will be our core for the new build. This stock piece had 140k on it and my builder wanted to tear it down for some wear measurements. Off to the machine shop where we have found that the bearing clearances are at the high end of the allowable and that oversized bearings for this application are a pain to source. He believes that with the factory bearings and the aftermarket units we have used all without tangs or locator pins the main bearings may have shifted and with the tight specs the books call for just enough oil feeding alignment issues have played into a terrible case of lost oil to the number one or two mains. At the rpm we turn for long duration we get high temp, breakdown of oil and boom, my wallet gets torn up. This new unit being built is going to have the bearings pinned. Line bored and assembled to see if we achieve after assembly enough clearance to spin it hard. The tune we placed on the last two motors was more on the rich side for fuel, we plan on moving a little farther to the rich side until we can see some time and temp on this motor. Hope to be installing for the Xmas holiday and be on the dyno in Jan.
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2,776 Posts
Re: Duratec failure
What size and brand oil cooler are you using? Where is it located?
You clearly realize you are having an oiling/ bearing issue. No change in cranks or hardening or coating will fix that so save your money on those things. I would recommend a dry sump you could have paid for it by now with all the failures you have had. That is if your class allows it. I would look toward bearing pins and clearances. You cannot run significantly thicker oil if the bearings are not clearanced for it. On stock clearances I would not go thicker than 5w30
What size and brand oil cooler are you using? Where is it located?
You clearly realize you are having an oiling/ bearing issue. No change in cranks or hardening or coating will fix that so save your money on those things. I would recommend a dry sump you could have paid for it by now with all the failures you have had. That is if your class allows it. I would look toward bearing pins and clearances. You cannot run significantly thicker oil if the bearings are not clearanced for it. On stock clearances I would not go thicker than 5w30
Re: Duratec failure
Dry sump is something I agree with but alas like you mentioned it's not allowed in the rules. Bought a mocul cooler, twice the size that are normally fitted to a focus. Never had an issue with the one we bought thru a vender here, great quality but with a remote filter setup and the trash that could have gone through the old cooler it's a new one. Placement is in the air flow in the lower grille opening, removal of the front bumper completely is required to get it fully supported and with obstructions. My builder is the one who believes in pinning the hearings as a precaution due to the failures we have experienced.
Dry sump is something I agree with but alas like you mentioned it's not allowed in the rules. Bought a mocul cooler, twice the size that are normally fitted to a focus. Never had an issue with the one we bought thru a vender here, great quality but with a remote filter setup and the trash that could have gone through the old cooler it's a new one. Placement is in the air flow in the lower grille opening, removal of the front bumper completely is required to get it fully supported and with obstructions. My builder is the one who believes in pinning the hearings as a precaution due to the failures we have experienced.
Re: Duratec failure
Well the new motor is in and running. It has about an hour of low speed running and 7 full hard pulls on the dyno for final tuning. We or actually my builder delivered a nice piece, bearings have been pinned, using a ranger crank and keyed gear. Stock head and cams as required by the rules in my series. Extra attention to oil delivery and a very worked oil pump delivers 70 psi at 6500 rpm. Oil temps prior were a concern but so far nothing hotter than 190 and water temp the same. Actually on the dyno we had to block off the oil cooler to get heat. I hope this is a true indication of no internal wear or constriction leading to high temps we had experienced. Off to the track this weekend for the first set of races for 2016. Suspension development is the same as last year as the budget was crushed by motors, but I have found a racer buddy who wants to attempt building a set of spherical bearing for my suspension so after the weekend off comes the parts car suspension as a Guinea pig. Who knows it might be a good year after all.
Well the new motor is in and running. It has about an hour of low speed running and 7 full hard pulls on the dyno for final tuning. We or actually my builder delivered a nice piece, bearings have been pinned, using a ranger crank and keyed gear. Stock head and cams as required by the rules in my series. Extra attention to oil delivery and a very worked oil pump delivers 70 psi at 6500 rpm. Oil temps prior were a concern but so far nothing hotter than 190 and water temp the same. Actually on the dyno we had to block off the oil cooler to get heat. I hope this is a true indication of no internal wear or constriction leading to high temps we had experienced. Off to the track this weekend for the first set of races for 2016. Suspension development is the same as last year as the budget was crushed by motors, but I have found a racer buddy who wants to attempt building a set of spherical bearing for my suspension so after the weekend off comes the parts car suspension as a Guinea pig. Who knows it might be a good year after all.
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