Ok trying to prevent further screw ups on my next build. So I run scca and I use a 2.3. Three motors have experienced three failures all I believe stemming from the number two rod losing oil pressure. Bearing fails and boom rod breaks and blows thru block. Big and expensive. So how hard do I run my motor. First every build has been with brand new parts. Proper break in yep, then track. So my red line is 7200rpm, the car weights 2700. I have a windage tray, an accusump and an oil cooler, mounted in front of the rad. So after three races this current motor experienced a failure at the number two rod. Water temp was 220, oil temp was 280, oil pressure was cold at 80 psi hot was 50 at 6000rpm. Anyone running hard with a 2.3, anyone experience a failure, anyone have great success care to share any secrets I keep missing so as to protect my next build. Yes Bds delete was on all three.
msperber
Re: Duratec failure
Which oil are you running-weight and brand?
What brand /material bearings?
Which oil are you running-weight and brand?
What brand /material bearings?
Re: Duratec failure
The most current failure took place with penzoil 5/40 syn. This was the oil we used after break in with joe Gibbs 5/30 break in oil with all the extra lubricant zinc for start up. Oil filters were removed after one hour of breakin and opened up to verify if anything stray had be captured and or found unusual. After one race we sent oil for analysis both from filter and pan. Nothing unusal found other than a higher than usual level of lead. Bearings were aluminum the name I don't have at hand. The prior engine was run with joe Gibbs breaking and then we moved to 5/20 valvoline full syn.
The most current failure took place with penzoil 5/40 syn. This was the oil we used after break in with joe Gibbs 5/30 break in oil with all the extra lubricant zinc for start up. Oil filters were removed after one hour of breakin and opened up to verify if anything stray had be captured and or found unusual. After one race we sent oil for analysis both from filter and pan. Nothing unusal found other than a higher than usual level of lead. Bearings were aluminum the name I don't have at hand. The prior engine was run with joe Gibbs breaking and then we moved to 5/20 valvoline full syn.
Re: Duratec failure
I had my 2.3 blow up at midohio at an hpde. 3rd session 4th lap running hard. 2nd cyl rod. Had 163,xxx on it. Now i have a fusion 2.5 that i only ran one track day on. Mods to lower end are balance shaft delete with oil pan baffle. Motor has 50k in it. Will see what happens.
I had my 2.3 blow up at midohio at an hpde. 3rd session 4th lap running hard. 2nd cyl rod. Had 163,xxx on it. Now i have a fusion 2.5 that i only ran one track day on. Mods to lower end are balance shaft delete with oil pan baffle. Motor has 50k in it. Will see what happens.
Re: Duratec failure
What are you running for a crank?
Any mods to the oil passages on the crank?
Was the rotating assembly balanced?
What are you running for a crank dampener?
Were the blocks align honed?
What oil pump are you running?
I think you need a heavier oil for race use....10 or 15w 30 or 40...I wouldn't run that on a stock duratec but since your clearances are monkied with anyway you should be able to run a heavier oil without adding undue stress to the crank/rods/oiling system (at least if you plan to run heavier oil from the start of the build this should be true...).
What are you running for a crank?
Any mods to the oil passages on the crank?
Was the rotating assembly balanced?
What are you running for a crank dampener?
Were the blocks align honed?
What oil pump are you running?
I think you need a heavier oil for race use....10 or 15w 30 or 40...I wouldn't run that on a stock duratec but since your clearances are monkied with anyway you should be able to run a heavier oil without adding undue stress to the crank/rods/oiling system (at least if you plan to run heavier oil from the start of the build this should be true...).
Re: Duratec failure
Ok some answers to those questions, ranger crank, eagle rods, wiesco pistons 20 over with total seal pistons. All oil passages on the crank were chamfered by the machine shop. Oil pump as the only one available is the factory unit, but we opened up the oil relief spring and shimmed it another .060 for more pressure. We also used a fusion gear on the pump as its 2 teeth less, more volume with the same pump. Rotating assembly was balanced by the machine shop. Crank pulley is the stock unit. The block was align bored and we also had a torque plate supplied to the shop. Do you know of an after market pump or another unit available? Windage tray and an accusump plumbed inline with an oil cooler. Please throw out more suggestions as any and all well be put to use. Thanks in advance as I just met with a renowned engine builder in my area for the next build for next year. Ordered a new keyed crank and new rods so far, sourced a new block and head.
Ok some answers to those questions, ranger crank, eagle rods, wiesco pistons 20 over with total seal pistons. All oil passages on the crank were chamfered by the machine shop. Oil pump as the only one available is the factory unit, but we opened up the oil relief spring and shimmed it another .060 for more pressure. We also used a fusion gear on the pump as its 2 teeth less, more volume with the same pump. Rotating assembly was balanced by the machine shop. Crank pulley is the stock unit. The block was align bored and we also had a torque plate supplied to the shop. Do you know of an after market pump or another unit available? Windage tray and an accusump plumbed inline with an oil cooler. Please throw out more suggestions as any and all well be put to use. Thanks in advance as I just met with a renowned engine builder in my area for the next build for next year. Ordered a new keyed crank and new rods so far, sourced a new block and head.
Re: Duratec failure
We have a line from the removed PVC system routing the vapors and or fluid to a collection tank, additionally we have a line on the valve cover also routed to the same catch tank. Inspection of this after every run, especially on new motor break in is a regular service. We never have had an unusually large amount of blow by, actually so little its become a non issue. This is the only area I know of where I could have checked for high crankcase pressure, but its something now on the list to address with the builder. Please keep the questions coming as solving this issue of blowing up motors will help us all, my build of the car will always be an open book until you beat me then your turn to share.
)
We have a line from the removed PVC system routing the vapors and or fluid to a collection tank, additionally we have a line on the valve cover also routed to the same catch tank. Inspection of this after every run, especially on new motor break in is a regular service. We never have had an unusually large amount of blow by, actually so little its become a non issue. This is the only area I know of where I could have checked for high crankcase pressure, but its something now on the list to address with the builder. Please keep the questions coming as solving this issue of blowing up motors will help us all, my build of the car will always be an open book until you beat me then your turn to share.
)Re: Duratec failure
Well the season to start a new build has begun. The professional engine builder I have delivered my stuff to, which includes two expired short blocks from this year, three heads which two are stock and one that has been massaged and bunch of new parts which I include crank, rods, Pistons oil cooler, remote filter system and a complete motor which will be our core for the new build. This stock piece had 140k on it and my builder wanted to tear it down for some wear measurements. Off to the machine shop where we have found that the bearing clearances are at the high end of the allowable and that oversized bearings for this application are a pain to source. He believes that with the factory bearings and the aftermarket units we have used all without tangs or locator pins the main bearings may have shifted and with the tight specs the books call for just enough oil feeding alignment issues have played into a terrible case of lost oil to the number one or two mains. At the rpm we turn for long duration we get high temp, breakdown of oil and boom, my wallet gets torn up. This new unit being built is going to have the bearings pinned. Line bored and assembled to see if we achieve after assembly enough clearance to spin it hard. The tune we placed on the last two motors was more on the rich side for fuel, we plan on moving a little farther to the rich side until we can see some time and temp on this motor. Hope to be installing for the Xmas holiday and be on the dyno in Jan.
Well the season to start a new build has begun. The professional engine builder I have delivered my stuff to, which includes two expired short blocks from this year, three heads which two are stock and one that has been massaged and bunch of new parts which I include crank, rods, Pistons oil cooler, remote filter system and a complete motor which will be our core for the new build. This stock piece had 140k on it and my builder wanted to tear it down for some wear measurements. Off to the machine shop where we have found that the bearing clearances are at the high end of the allowable and that oversized bearings for this application are a pain to source. He believes that with the factory bearings and the aftermarket units we have used all without tangs or locator pins the main bearings may have shifted and with the tight specs the books call for just enough oil feeding alignment issues have played into a terrible case of lost oil to the number one or two mains. At the rpm we turn for long duration we get high temp, breakdown of oil and boom, my wallet gets torn up. This new unit being built is going to have the bearings pinned. Line bored and assembled to see if we achieve after assembly enough clearance to spin it hard. The tune we placed on the last two motors was more on the rich side for fuel, we plan on moving a little farther to the rich side until we can see some time and temp on this motor. Hope to be installing for the Xmas holiday and be on the dyno in Jan.
Re: Duratec failure
What size and brand oil cooler are you using? Where is it located?
You clearly realize you are having an oiling/ bearing issue. No change in cranks or hardening or coating will fix that so save your money on those things. I would recommend a dry sump you could have paid for it by now with all the failures you have had. That is if your class allows it. I would look toward bearing pins and clearances. You cannot run significantly thicker oil if the bearings are not clearanced for it. On stock clearances I would not go thicker than 5w30
What size and brand oil cooler are you using? Where is it located?
You clearly realize you are having an oiling/ bearing issue. No change in cranks or hardening or coating will fix that so save your money on those things. I would recommend a dry sump you could have paid for it by now with all the failures you have had. That is if your class allows it. I would look toward bearing pins and clearances. You cannot run significantly thicker oil if the bearings are not clearanced for it. On stock clearances I would not go thicker than 5w30
Re: Duratec failure
Dry sump is something I agree with but alas like you mentioned it's not allowed in the rules. Bought a mocul cooler, twice the size that are normally fitted to a focus. Never had an issue with the one we bought thru a vender here, great quality but with a remote filter setup and the trash that could have gone through the old cooler it's a new one. Placement is in the air flow in the lower grille opening, removal of the front bumper completely is required to get it fully supported and with obstructions. My builder is the one who believes in pinning the hearings as a precaution due to the failures we have experienced.
Dry sump is something I agree with but alas like you mentioned it's not allowed in the rules. Bought a mocul cooler, twice the size that are normally fitted to a focus. Never had an issue with the one we bought thru a vender here, great quality but with a remote filter setup and the trash that could have gone through the old cooler it's a new one. Placement is in the air flow in the lower grille opening, removal of the front bumper completely is required to get it fully supported and with obstructions. My builder is the one who believes in pinning the hearings as a precaution due to the failures we have experienced.
Re: Duratec failure
Well the new motor is in and running. It has about an hour of low speed running and 7 full hard pulls on the dyno for final tuning. We or actually my builder delivered a nice piece, bearings have been pinned, using a ranger crank and keyed gear. Stock head and cams as required by the rules in my series. Extra attention to oil delivery and a very worked oil pump delivers 70 psi at 6500 rpm. Oil temps prior were a concern but so far nothing hotter than 190 and water temp the same. Actually on the dyno we had to block off the oil cooler to get heat. I hope this is a true indication of no internal wear or constriction leading to high temps we had experienced. Off to the track this weekend for the first set of races for 2016. Suspension development is the same as last year as the budget was crushed by motors, but I have found a racer buddy who wants to attempt building a set of spherical bearing for my suspension so after the weekend off comes the parts car suspension as a Guinea pig. Who knows it might be a good year after all.
Well the new motor is in and running. It has about an hour of low speed running and 7 full hard pulls on the dyno for final tuning. We or actually my builder delivered a nice piece, bearings have been pinned, using a ranger crank and keyed gear. Stock head and cams as required by the rules in my series. Extra attention to oil delivery and a very worked oil pump delivers 70 psi at 6500 rpm. Oil temps prior were a concern but so far nothing hotter than 190 and water temp the same. Actually on the dyno we had to block off the oil cooler to get heat. I hope this is a true indication of no internal wear or constriction leading to high temps we had experienced. Off to the track this weekend for the first set of races for 2016. Suspension development is the same as last year as the budget was crushed by motors, but I have found a racer buddy who wants to attempt building a set of spherical bearing for my suspension so after the weekend off comes the parts car suspension as a Guinea pig. Who knows it might be a good year after all.
Re: Duratec failure
Im way late to the party but Im glad to see you did something about the oil pump... I dont know whats normal for duratecs but 50psi at 6k rpms seemed way low for a motor you're abusing. For comparison, on my GTO, my hot oil pressure is about 32 psi at idle, and increases about 10 psi for every 1k rpms.
Im way late to the party but Im glad to see you did something about the oil pump... I dont know whats normal for duratecs but 50psi at 6k rpms seemed way low for a motor you're abusing. For comparison, on my GTO, my hot oil pressure is about 32 psi at idle, and increases about 10 psi for every 1k rpms.
Re: Duratec failure
Oil pump details as explained to me by my builder. First the gears were removed from the case, polished and the internals coated with some magic coating. It's the first one he has tried. Second the relief spring and plunger was removed, replaced with a stiffer spring and the cap that previously held the spring in was replaced with a cap screw. The body of the pump where the relief spring resides is threaded for the cap screw. The center of the screw is also drilled in the middle for oil bleed off. The cap screw is also drilled to put a cotter pin in to first allow more or less pressure to be placed on the spring and change the over all pressure the motor sees. I have adjusted the spring pressure twice, yes it requires the removal of the oil pan, messy but it's adjustable. Ran the motor today prior to putting in the trailer. Cold start is silly high, 95psi, warmed up at 5500 floats between 75-78. Idle sits at 35 with an idle of 1200. We also have a 2 quart accusump and instead of a remote oil filter with all the lines we now have a modified oil filter mount that accepts a FL1a filter. Doesn't hang down to bad and with the cooler and sump we now run almost 7 quarts. The mocul oil cooler is mounted middle of the radiator with a direct flow of air from the lower air intake. On the dyno we had to block off the cooler to get decent heat in the oil system, maybe we got it right this time. Hope this answers the oil pump mods. Running 5/30 synthetic oil
Oil pump details as explained to me by my builder. First the gears were removed from the case, polished and the internals coated with some magic coating. It's the first one he has tried. Second the relief spring and plunger was removed, replaced with a stiffer spring and the cap that previously held the spring in was replaced with a cap screw. The body of the pump where the relief spring resides is threaded for the cap screw. The center of the screw is also drilled in the middle for oil bleed off. The cap screw is also drilled to put a cotter pin in to first allow more or less pressure to be placed on the spring and change the over all pressure the motor sees. I have adjusted the spring pressure twice, yes it requires the removal of the oil pan, messy but it's adjustable. Ran the motor today prior to putting in the trailer. Cold start is silly high, 95psi, warmed up at 5500 floats between 75-78. Idle sits at 35 with an idle of 1200. We also have a 2 quart accusump and instead of a remote oil filter with all the lines we now have a modified oil filter mount that accepts a FL1a filter. Doesn't hang down to bad and with the cooler and sump we now run almost 7 quarts. The mocul oil cooler is mounted middle of the radiator with a direct flow of air from the lower air intake. On the dyno we had to block off the cooler to get decent heat in the oil system, maybe we got it right this time. Hope this answers the oil pump mods. Running 5/30 synthetic oil
Re: Duratec failure
I personally have never understood the modern infatuation with running low weight oils in race engines. 5-30 oil is 5 weight oil modified to act like 30, when the additives wear out you are running basically 5 weight oil. While it can be said the oil would be changed before the additives could ever wear out who knows what shearing at high rpm does to oil short term? Those low weight oils are intended for clearances of less than .002" and have no place ( to me anyway) in a high-perf engine. I would be running a minimum of 10-30 and actually prefer higher than that. FYI, I run straight 30 weight in all my Foci and no issues in all the years I've done so even though everyone swore I would have VCT issues all over the place. Nope. Not a one. I loathe 5W-20 oil.
Pinning bearings a good idea, they spin when the rod big end goes eggshape at high rpm to pull the sides in to then chisel oil off the bearing and it spins. Loosening up the big end to .002" or more if needed can work to alleviate that but then need a bit thicker oil to cover up the bigger gap there. We had no issues at all running straight 30 or 40 weight on high rpm pro stock V-8s running at 9000 rpm doing that. Or 20W-50.
On a high-perf oil pump you look to reduce the end clearance of any cover to gears to eliminate end leakage. The gears should be maybe .002"-.003" shorter than the chamber they run in. If no gaskets used there you can cavitate to suck air at metal to metal seals too, seal that with like very thin gasket sealer. Depending on how the oiling system is plumbed you can suck VERY slight air there in miniscule amounts that then can hang in higher points in oil system until it stacks up enough that at some point the engine ingests a chunk of air and if at high rpm mysterious rod failures occur then.
You realize the FL1 has a bypass built into filter right? Generally one looks to do away with that on race stuff to get 100% oil filtration.
I personally have never understood the modern infatuation with running low weight oils in race engines. 5-30 oil is 5 weight oil modified to act like 30, when the additives wear out you are running basically 5 weight oil. While it can be said the oil would be changed before the additives could ever wear out who knows what shearing at high rpm does to oil short term? Those low weight oils are intended for clearances of less than .002" and have no place ( to me anyway) in a high-perf engine. I would be running a minimum of 10-30 and actually prefer higher than that. FYI, I run straight 30 weight in all my Foci and no issues in all the years I've done so even though everyone swore I would have VCT issues all over the place. Nope. Not a one. I loathe 5W-20 oil.
Pinning bearings a good idea, they spin when the rod big end goes eggshape at high rpm to pull the sides in to then chisel oil off the bearing and it spins. Loosening up the big end to .002" or more if needed can work to alleviate that but then need a bit thicker oil to cover up the bigger gap there. We had no issues at all running straight 30 or 40 weight on high rpm pro stock V-8s running at 9000 rpm doing that. Or 20W-50.
On a high-perf oil pump you look to reduce the end clearance of any cover to gears to eliminate end leakage. The gears should be maybe .002"-.003" shorter than the chamber they run in. If no gaskets used there you can cavitate to suck air at metal to metal seals too, seal that with like very thin gasket sealer. Depending on how the oiling system is plumbed you can suck VERY slight air there in miniscule amounts that then can hang in higher points in oil system until it stacks up enough that at some point the engine ingests a chunk of air and if at high rpm mysterious rod failures occur then.
You realize the FL1 has a bypass built into filter right? Generally one looks to do away with that on race stuff to get 100% oil filtration.
Re: Duratec failure
Thanks, two hours on the dyno for tuning and about one hour of driving over one week in the parking lot where I work. Thought all was good. Off to the track, three laps and high oil temp and I heard a rattle. Shut down and coasted off track, back in the pits we pulled the filter, bearing material when we cut open the filter. Bad news, really bad news is my builder threw up his arms and quit, with I just don't know. Yep big time screwed. My tuner expert has stepped in and has gotten a machine shop he has long term relationship with for the autopsy. So far we have a bent crank, a brand new crank is bent .030. So more information is needed which is what they are doing. As for the former builder, well enough said. I installed the stock motor and very worked trans to hopefully make the next race, unfortunately I won't have this combo finished for this weekends races which is very disappointing. Some say I may have gotten an air pocket which when running hard enough hit a bearing. I find this a little confusing and with an accusump, and cooler I am more confused. I will wait an see what the experts say. I thought last year sucked, nope this one is looking worse.
Thanks, two hours on the dyno for tuning and about one hour of driving over one week in the parking lot where I work. Thought all was good. Off to the track, three laps and high oil temp and I heard a rattle. Shut down and coasted off track, back in the pits we pulled the filter, bearing material when we cut open the filter. Bad news, really bad news is my builder threw up his arms and quit, with I just don't know. Yep big time screwed. My tuner expert has stepped in and has gotten a machine shop he has long term relationship with for the autopsy. So far we have a bent crank, a brand new crank is bent .030. So more information is needed which is what they are doing. As for the former builder, well enough said. I installed the stock motor and very worked trans to hopefully make the next race, unfortunately I won't have this combo finished for this weekends races which is very disappointing. Some say I may have gotten an air pocket which when running hard enough hit a bearing. I find this a little confusing and with an accusump, and cooler I am more confused. I will wait an see what the experts say. I thought last year sucked, nope this one is looking worse.
Re: Duratec failure
I am also, the builder spent a large amount of time on ensuring the line bore was within spec to prevent any possible additional friction, I am going to the shop to see what else they have found and will report back. I know I am not an experienced builder with my prior results which is why is brought it to a pro, but I got less than the same results. I know we are missing something and probably simple but this is baffling me and I know there are duratecs out there with similar build specs that are running fine. We start with core 2.3 use a new ranger crank, eagle rods, wiesco pistons, bored 20 over, nothing special with a tune on the safe side for detonation, knock sensor always on, accusump a new oil pump every time. Nothing special. What are we missing.
I am also, the builder spent a large amount of time on ensuring the line bore was within spec to prevent any possible additional friction, I am going to the shop to see what else they have found and will report back. I know I am not an experienced builder with my prior results which is why is brought it to a pro, but I got less than the same results. I know we are missing something and probably simple but this is baffling me and I know there are duratecs out there with similar build specs that are running fine. We start with core 2.3 use a new ranger crank, eagle rods, wiesco pistons, bored 20 over, nothing special with a tune on the safe side for detonation, knock sensor always on, accusump a new oil pump every time. Nothing special. What are we missing.
Re: Duratec failure
The recent failure could've just been a faulty bearing. Stuff like that does happen.
IMO, I'd change oils. With the tight tolerances of the Duratec, I'd just run a high end 5w-20 such as Joe Gibbs race oil or Amsoil Dominator. I run Dominator 5w-20 in my car and it loves it. I like to see oil temps between 220-250*F at max effort, though there's nothing wrong with it being 270-280*F with the right oil. It's essential to get the oil up above 220*F so you can burn off any condensation in the crankcase. If the oil was getting upwards of 300*F then I'd be a little concerned.
I'm not really a fan of the Eagle rods for your engine only because they are heavy. In an application like yours, I'd want the lightest rod and piston combo possible. You could also consider a 2.5L crank and rods in the 2.3L block for a cheap stroker if the class allows it.
The recent failure could've just been a faulty bearing. Stuff like that does happen.
IMO, I'd change oils. With the tight tolerances of the Duratec, I'd just run a high end 5w-20 such as Joe Gibbs race oil or Amsoil Dominator. I run Dominator 5w-20 in my car and it loves it. I like to see oil temps between 220-250*F at max effort, though there's nothing wrong with it being 270-280*F with the right oil. It's essential to get the oil up above 220*F so you can burn off any condensation in the crankcase. If the oil was getting upwards of 300*F then I'd be a little concerned.
I'm not really a fan of the Eagle rods for your engine only because they are heavy. In an application like yours, I'd want the lightest rod and piston combo possible. You could also consider a 2.5L crank and rods in the 2.3L block for a cheap stroker if the class allows it.
Re: Duratec failure
Wish I could but the rules don't allow the substitutions of cranks and rods, I am taking a little Liberty as I want to spin the motor a little harder. Autopsy showed the number two rod bearing failed, welded itself to the crank. That's what we found so far, do you run a cooler, we are going to run no cooler and just the accusump to eliminate one more source of problems or possible issues.
Wish I could but the rules don't allow the substitutions of cranks and rods, I am taking a little Liberty as I want to spin the motor a little harder. Autopsy showed the number two rod bearing failed, welded itself to the crank. That's what we found so far, do you run a cooler, we are going to run no cooler and just the accusump to eliminate one more source of problems or possible issues.
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