[FSWerksVP]

ive never needed 220whp at 1500rpms...im content with my 75whp and waiting for 400+ to come on later...

Good for you.

 

[FSWerksVP]

randy is this a good example?:dunno:

im willing to bet that the car making more power is fast even tho it might spool a tid bit later...even from 4th gear...

A good example of what? I don't recall ever mentioning whether or not certain cars were fast or slow.

Charts with anything blacked out usually are not good examples are my first thought, though.

 

[Stolle]

what its showing is why its a good idea to give up some of your spool in return for carrying the power farther out.

 

[FSWerksVP]

Hmm. No, not the greatest example. If you are talking about low end spool, it would be better to show the dynos starting as close to 2,000 rpms as possible. And why is topspeed's name blacked out??

However, you can't discount the actual driving experience; the part that doesn't show up on a dyno chart. When I look at the chart in my sig I think, damn looks pretty good. It spools up nice. Then when I go drive the car the fact that it's a 3076R due to the lag is quite apparent.

You guys that like to have these bigger turbos, please enjoy yourself. I really don't mind. Seriously. I'm not trying to change minds as much as shed light to those who haven't driven many different size turbos for any length of time. I will counter statements, such as Jared's, though.

 

[Stolle]

Hmm. No, not the greatest example. If you are talking about low end spool, it would be better to show the dynos starting as close to 2,000 rpms as possible. And why is topspeed's name blacked out??

However, you can't discount the actual driving experience; the part that doesn't show up on a dyno chart. When I look at the chart in my sig I think, damn looks pretty good. It spools up nice. Then when I go drive the car the fact that it's a 3076R due to the lag is quite apparent.

You guys that like to have these bigger turbos, please enjoy yourself. I really don't mind. Seriously. I'm not trying to change minds as much as shed light to those who haven't driven many different size turbos for any length of time. I will counter statements, such as Jared's, though.

the car making 260whp and 240ftlbs is just an reliable and longevity as the 237whp 231ftlbs car.

say what you want. its not spooling violently or making that much more torque. a whole 9ftlbs.

torque and rpm's is what is gonna kill an engine. provided you dont knock or something else etc.

and i feel that jareds 300whp pull. what was it? like 9psi? is pretty easy on the engine. compare that to when he had to make 18-19psi to make 340whp on the stock intake manifold.

granted he has a built engine on that 300whp pull. but still it shows that he's making the power with less boost using a better flowing intake manifold.

i think with the right intake manifold a stock 2.0L duratec can make 300whp ALLLLLLLLLLLLLL day from now till henry ford the 55th is born. ok not that long. but still you get my point.

 

[Stolle]

ok work with me. this is a zetec car of course...

same everything same boost. just switched intake manifolds.

your giving up just a slight low end number for wayyyyy more up top! at the same torque.

so there for i belive that its less stressful on the engine.

 

[FSWerksVP]

That's great. What's that got to do with my point? And again, why did you black out topspeed's name previously?

 

[OmniFocus]

Personally, with what I use my cars for, I'd take the low end over the top end.

You CAN'T always be in the right gear, because sometimes it doesn't exist.

I know everybody is really big with the huge horsepower Foci these days, and more power to them... but day-to-day, I'd much rather enjoy a 250whp Focus with a flat torque curve than a 400whp Focus with a peaky curve.

With my form of lowly amateur motorsport, I can't see getting more than 300fwhp to even stick to the ground anyway, so as far as I'm concerned, everything above that is kind of a waste.

This whole thing reminds me of college... My roommate and I both had the same exact car, but I had a Garrett T3 and he had a tiny Mitsu TE04. His car felt faster, and was much more enjoyable around town... but when you put the clock to them, mine was the winner.... but I'd still rather drive his to the corner liquor store.

 

[bmylez]

Yeah, this thread is getting waaay off-base. Steve didn't ask "Hey, how much hp can I get if I carry the torque out farther?" He said, "How much power can a Dtec take and last a while?" Period.

 

[goldsex]

I find these Turbo Conversations VERY interesting, It's all a matter of preference, I'll take 220hp / 240tq just for the sake of drivability. You all know that FSWerks kits are known for reliable HP and the fact of the matter is if you have a DAILY DRIVER and don't track the car (a Lot ) and want some more power the FSWerks kit offers that. I'll take the early spool-up that just means I have to push on the gas less when driving and when I'm in stop and go traffic I don't have to worry about the lack of torque causing me to rev the engine higher just to keep it from stalling out. The big power guys are missing the point - You can have all that big power on a BUILT motor but on a STOCK setup ? I think that 250 / 250 is a safe bet.

Troy.

 

[topspeedfab]

Everyone here keeps saying, 'i want a flat torque curve', and are pointing to a chart that has equal torque and horsepower as a reference. When in fact that normally points to just the opposite.

When I see this I think of 454 bb chevys that I dyno that someone has put a wrong combination of parts on and they make 100more ft lbs than horsepower. All that means is their torque fell like a rock as the RPMs went up. If you carry your torque for any distance, you WILL NOT see an even hp/torque spread, you will see a higher hp number. This is just a simple fact.

All of this has nothing to do with turbocharger size as it does have something to do with cam and intake manifold selection. This is a situation where the same principles you should learn from building N/A power switch over to a turbo car.

And if you still don't understand how hp and torque relate I wrote an article about it on our website. Really everyone should understand this, but it is probably one of the most misunderstood facts about engines.

If you want to discuss turbo sizing. Maybe we should start a new thread.

 

[FSWerksVP]

Personally, with what I use my cars for, I'd take the low end over the top end.

You CAN'T always be in the right gear, because sometimes it doesn't exist.

I know everybody is really big with the huge horsepower Foci these days, and more power to them... but day-to-day, I'd much rather enjoy a 250whp Focus with a flat torque curve than a 400whp Focus with a peaky curve.

With my form of lowly amateur motorsport, I can't see getting more than 300fwhp to even stick to the ground anyway, so as far as I'm concerned, everything above that is kind of a waste.

This whole thing reminds me of college... My roommate and I both had the same exact car, but I had a Garrett T3 and he had a tiny Mitsu TE04. His car felt faster, and was much more enjoyable around town... but when you put the clock to them, mine was the winner.... but I'd still rather drive his to the corner liquor store.

I "almost" quoted you because I knew your unedited post was too good to last. :lol:

 

[FSWerksVP]

I find these Turbo Conversations VERY interesting, It's all a matter of preference, I'll take 220hp / 240tq just for the sake of drivability. You all know that FSWerks kits are known for reliable HP and the fact of the matter is if you have a DAILY DRIVER and don't track the car (a Lot ) and want some more power the FSWerks kit offers that. I'll take the early spool-up that just means I have to push on the gas less when driving and when I'm in stop and go traffic I don't have to worry about the lack of torque causing me to rev the engine higher just to keep it from stalling out. The big power guys are missing the point - You can have all that big power on a BUILT motor but on a STOCK setup ? I think that 250 / 250 is a safe bet.

Troy.

I know what you're saying. Driving my Focus as is, it's fun, but I do miss that punchey low end feeling of the smaller turbos where you can just stab it in any gear and get moving rather quickly and without even flooring it. The GT28RS is a great middle of the road turbo looking back to all of the set ups we've had here on our cars.

 

[Voortrek3]

I would say that I would look for between 230-250hp if I could afford to go FI for my DD.

 

[topspeedfab]

Look at the flat torque. 246ftlbs until 7000. This is a perfect example of what Jared was trying to say. Hold the 250tq that you say you are limited to and you will have a much faster car.

This is Jared's car in 3rd. Sure it isn't a duratec but the same principles need to be applied.

 

[goldsex]

Now Compare that to this....

For Drivability and a Daily driver you will be happier with a nice fat Torque curve EARLY, and yes I know the torque falls off after 4K but I'm not in the habbit of Reving the piss out of my DD. This is a Great DD setup for the masses, there is always something that you can do to make your car faster but for someone that wants GOOD power down low this kit is great. With this kit there is no point in racing the engine to 7K as the HP falls off after 6K just like in a stock application. It's not the first time that someone has said that the FSWerks kits run like a stock car until you push the GO pedal.

 

[SR Performance]

Look at the flat torque. 246ftlbs until 7000. This is a perfect example of what Jared was trying to say. Hold the 250tq that you say you are limited to and you will have a much faster car.

This is Jared's car in 3rd. Sure it isn't a duratec but the same principles need to be applied.

Now THAT is what I'm looking for! Beautiful torque cur*AHEM* I mean line. :thumbup:

That being said, I love to drag race and don't care so much for that jump on the street. Everyone has their preference. For drag racing, I want that torque to hold in the higher rpm. I have the Mustang for instant torque on the street.

 

[FSWerksVP]

It was said that "faster is always better."

It's clear that some people (the majority I'd guess) are after the response and punchy feeling of a smaller turbo as was stated here in this thread. Of course there are exceptions as we can see here.

As I've stated a couple times already, the dyno doesn't tell the whole story of how a car feels and drives. And how it reacts to part throttle acceleration or it's overall behavior. These things should be considered. That's been my point all along. I really don't care what size turbo people use or what they prefer. Hopefully, people who don't have first hand experience in actually driving different set ups can find a way to do so before making a decision versus just reading about people's opinions.

 

[topspeedfab]

It was said that "faster is always better."

It's clear that some people (the majority I'd guess) are after the response and punchy feeling of a smaller turbo as was stated here in this thread. Of course there are exceptions as we can see here.

As I've stated a couple times already, the dyno doesn't tell the whole story of how a car feels and drives. And how it reacts to part throttle acceleration or it's overall behavior. These things should be considered. That's been my point all along. I really don't care what size turbo people use or what they prefer. Hopefully, people who don't have first hand experience in actually driving different set ups can find a way to do so before making a decision versus just reading about people's opinions.

:dunno: I don't get what that had to do with turbo size.

If you had a smaller turbo, and applied the same principles it would have an even longer powerband.

 

[FSWerksVP]

Smaller turbos have better response and low end punch. Pretty evident when driving turbo Focuses with a bunch of different size turbos.