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Discussion Starter #1
Hey everyone-

I work for the company that makes the converters that FC is using and I noticed that a few people claimed that a Random Tech could make more hp...

Well I am here to tell you why I believe that is false.....

First lets look at the facts-

By EPA and CARB standards, the brick must have a density of at least 400 cells per square inch.

Our converters are legal (EPA approved in every state but CA on OBDII equipped vehicles)

So, seeing as we are all resticted to using the same brick, the difference in flow must come from the converter shell design.

1. The first thing you will notice is Random uses a smooth shell, while the FC has grooves in it.

This serves two functions-

The brick is surrounded by a cushioning mat that is 1/8" thick....well what we do is move this mat which is an unpermeable object out of the exhaust flow by putting it in the grooves therefore reducing both turbulence and back pressure.

By putting it out of the exhaust flow, we are also building a more durable converter, because the exhaust is not hitting the mat, wearing it away....

2. Random uses a butt to butt point weld where the pipe hits the converter, therefore creating a sharp edge which does not hurt it so much on the intake side as it does on the exhaust side

We use a 1/2 inch overlap, which not only provides a stronger weld, but provides a much smoother transition from pipe to converter shell.

3. Converter size. Well we all know the FC converter is bigger, well because it is bigger, you are going to have more surface area for the exhaust to flow through.

I am not here to bash the Random converter, just to show you the differences.

These are the main differences, and while one manufacturer can always claim to make more power then another....

We are the only manufacturer that has physical evidence to back it up.

Otherwise given the "right conditions" I am 100% positive we could make more then 7fwhp on a stock Focus.

I know that our converter will outflow a Random tech as a fact.
 

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gotta watch that 'legal' thing from state 2 state and some fed laws. here in md, their really stiff on things. i mean every1 who buys a high flow cat regardless of manuf. has 2 convince inspection that the stock 1 died (or has enuff mi on clock 2 allow a change) and thats its not 1db over stock. here in md, their crazy w/that....exh cant b louder than oem...doest matter if at 5k, ur yugo is drowned out by a harley at idle...if its over stock, its illegal.

i think every1 buyin these things should stop gettin picky over how much power it can make. i think people should start thinking that this piece goes in place of the stock stuff and it'll allow u 2 tune/upgrade ur car (within reason) w/o dyin.

just .02, but its good u have that info 2 bring 2 the table 4 every1. granted the random has been on the market a while as well.

-Ult

[ 02-19-2003, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: UltegraSTI ]
 

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i understand...but my trust is with a dyno. thats all
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Yeah....dyno runs can be manipulated more easily then you think....

we have a few of them.

I also noticed Random does all of their comparisons with "pellet" converters which are about the worst flowing converters you can find.



Actually I can say with confidence you will have no problems with our converters in any state....except CA...

We have the EO (executive order numbers) to back you up also.

We all ready test our exhaust systems to comply with CA standards, using test procedure J1169, so getting some db readings based on your information will not be a problem if you need them.

(and we are working on CARB right now for CA vehicles, as they have provided us with standards for CA, but they are much higher then before. )
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Ill add in...the new sound standard will be 95db in the next year or so..

it is 95db in CA, OR and WA now.....so if anyone gets a modified exhaust ticket with a Magnaflow exhaust in those states, I will give them proof they can take to court that the system is legal.
 

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well if thats true, i'd welcome it b/c the law here is definitely skewed.

good luck w/ur stuff,

-Ult
 

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It's clear from the post by GNN60GT500 that not only has he never seen a Random Tech converter, he's also not particularly knowledgeable about converter regulations. I'm not trying to start a flame war, but what he is presenting as "facts" are really more fiction. It seems to me that the information presented in his post is largely false and designed for no other purpose than to discredit Random Tech in an attempt to sell Magnaflow converters. For over two years, we have had nothing but excellent results with the Random Tech converter.

Regarding the incorrect information in the original post--

1- EPA does not approve catalytic converters. The establish standards that converters have to meet, but they do not issue approvals.
2- Cell density isn't the only factor that controls flow. The length of the brick and the cross-sectional area also have a big influence. Brick sizes DO vary from one converter model to another, even those made by the same company.
3- Whether a converter has smooth sides or not is really irrelevant. If the entire converter shell is larger, there will be more cross-sectional area even if the mat isn't recessed. And whether it's recessed or not, it has little if any influence on flow because it's at the outside and the majority of the flow through the converter is in the center.
4- There's no mat at all in the Random Tech Focus converter because it uses a metallic, rather than a ceramic substrate. Metallic substrates are the latest technology in converter construction and are used by manufacturers like Mercedes Benz, Toyota, Chrysler and BMW in their higher end vehicles.
5- The Random converter uses pipes that are flared to meet the converter body, which offers the smoothest transition and maximum flow. If the Magnaflow converter uses a 1/2" overlap, that means the pipe on the outlet side protrudes into the converter and that creates turbulence and a flow restriction.
6- Random Technology never claimed to make more horsepower than any other converter. People like us, who tested them made the claim.
7- The Random Tech comparisons are all made against original equipment converters (I have never seen them compare their products to another company's-- I think they have too much class for that). As far as I know, pellet type converters haven't been used by anyone in almost 10 years.

If it looks like I'm trying to defend Random Technology-- I am. We have been selling their converter for over 2 years and have had nothing but excellent results. Frankly, I don't care who the manufacturer is, I just want to offer the best flowing converter available. I don't like the idea of someone using incorrect and false information to discredit us (since we sell Random Tech converters) and to sell an unproven product to the Focus community. And with all the inaccuracies in the original post, I have to think that GNN60GT500 really knows the Magnaflow converter is inferior. Otherwise, he could stick to the facts, instead of fiction.
 

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Wow it's really getting serious. I can't wait till ours is done. Pellets WTF. I have to side with Ray on this, & have the facts to back it up. That's why it's taking us so long to come out with this thing. I have more flow test than you can shake a stick at. Maybe we should have an independent person put all three of these cats on the same car & test them. Any takers?
 

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2 different cars, 2 different dynos, 2 different days = 2 different results; I can understand both opinions on each product so I agree with Bandit; 3 tests, same car, same day!
I have a FC cat on the way and would be willing to put it up for tests, just to see! Any takers pm me as I just had my oe cat replaced under warranty (melted)so I should be good to go for a while


[ 02-19-2003, 08:34 PM: Message edited by: daveszx302 ]
 

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Originally posted by BANDIT:
Wow it's really getting serious. I can't wait till ours is done. Pellets WTF. I have to side with Ray on this, & have the facts to back it up. That's why it's taking us so long to come out with this thing. I have more flow test than you can shake a stick at. Maybe we should have an independent person put all three of these cats on the same car & test them. Any takers?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i'm in md and i'd be willing to be a test car. i am only a hop skip + jump away from McNews, i wouldn't mind trying out the different models on my car. i only have basic bolt ons (FS cool-flo, FC TB, Bosal Flex, MBRP cat-back) so the numbers wouldn't be too far off from stock. i'm in the market for a high flow cat and i'd be more than willing to buy the winner, just wouldn't (couldn't) buy all of them.

if the guys up at mcnews want to run a comparison on my car of the different designs i can be reached at [email protected] and i'd be willing to make a weekend out of it.

even if they don't want me i'd still like to see some kind of solid comparison test to really see how much better the rt really is (if at all.) the prices have come so close together that it would be in the interest of the buyer to know the facts.

Nate
 

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i have a random on right now...its good stuff. i could shoot up and video the comparison, and help w/the installs.

-Ult

[ 02-19-2003, 09:19 PM: Message edited by: UltegraSTI ]
 

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We wouldn't have a problem with someone unbias doing the test. Everyone send in the real production piece. I also think whoever does it should look at the quality of each individual piece. I would like to see Tom or even FS do it because they do not have any real interest in the cats. I feel they would do an honest test.

I do want everyone to know I am not putting down anyone else's product. We sell the FC and Bosal products and every part has its place in the market. We have always tried to be fair and honest about our opinions. We will not misrepresent a product to be something it is not.

[ 02-19-2003, 09:33 PM: Message edited by: Yel900rr ]
 

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Originally posted by GNN60GT500:
Ill add in...the new sound standard will be 95db in the next year or so..

it is 95db in CA, OR and WA now.....so if anyone gets a modified exhaust ticket with a Magnaflow exhaust in those states, I will give them proof they can take to court that the system is legal.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry... that won't cut it... if you get popped for modded exhaust > 95db in Cali you have to go get the level measured by an independant agent known as "the ref" and be tested.
 

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I think this is great! With a direct head to head comparison like this we the Foci owners will be truly informed about the products that we spend our hard earned cash on. I would hope that the test car have a cat-back and flex, all the same size tubing as the cats, but not a lot of other bolt-on pieces.
I really hope this happens!
 

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Damn also forgot about the Bosal!
Hmm...Bosal...Random Tech...or Focus Central...
I'll wait for results...but if I can't wait I'll go for the Random Tech.
 

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Just my two cents-- I'm new to the forum
but I've been messing with cars for years and I have a few friends who are really into it. Frankly, I wouldn't believe anything the guy from Magnaflow says. I saw that same stuff on another site somewhere (don't remember which one)and it's just as wrong now as it was then. I think this guy just goes around to different sites trashing other companies so he can sell something.
 

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Guys, the only thing I don't like about this board is all the flame throwing and trash talking
It looks like McNews has/does sell all three product lines but favors Random, mabyee because the other two have not been seen yet, who knows?
Does McNews have a dyno? Or mabye a flow bench?
Like I said,I would put up my FC cat for testing, I didn't say it was the best, just thought it would be great to compare products.
Brick material and 400 v 200 (Bosal ?) cells per inch.
I think it would be a great test as all three cats would have the same federally mandated warranty anyway


Ray and Bandit, would you be willing to put up a new cat for 1 day and where can we test them, Rays place seems the most logical.

As posted before, there is a place for all three manufacturers reguardless of the outcome. I think it's great that more than 1 company takes intrest in our cars

So lets get a proper test done, not one on the east coast and one on the west coast and not start flame wars over whose is better.
 

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Originally posted by Yel900rr:
We wouldn't have a problem with someone unbias doing the test. Everyone send in the real production piece. I also think whoever does it should look at the quality of each individual piece. I would like to see Tom or even FS do it because they do not have any real interest in the cats. I feel they would do an honest test.

I do want everyone to know I am not putting down anyone else's product. We sell the FC and Bosal products and every part has its place in the market. We have always tried to be fair and honest about our opinions. We will not misrepresent a product to be something it is not.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">have you emailed FS about this? i think them doing it would be a much better idea as they have direct access to a dyno at their shop and the installs would only take a couple of min a piece.

Nate

[ 02-20-2003, 09:59 AM: Message edited by: Bmorezx3 ]
 
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