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Finally Toyota comes clean.

6.7K views 123 replies 36 participants last post by  wilko  
#1 ·
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100408/ap_on_bi_ge/us_toyota_recall

WASHINGTON – Five days before Toyota announced a massive recall, a U.S. public relations executive at the automaker warned colleagues in an internal e-mail: "We need to come clean" about accelerator problems, according to documents obtained by The Associated Press on Wednesday.
"We are not protecting our customers by keeping this quiet," wrote Irv Miller, group vice president for environment and public affairs. "The time to hide on this one is over."
The recently retired Miller wrote the e-mail on Jan. 16, 2010, as Toyota officials were on their way to Washington to discuss the problems with federal regulators. On Jan. 21, Toyota announced it would recall 2.3 million vehicles to address sticking pedals in six vehicle models.
The e-mail reveals deep concerns within the company's leadership that Toyota wasn't dealing with the safety problems effectively and could damage the automaker's sterling reputation for producing safe and reliable vehicles. The company already had announced a recall of more than 4 million vehicles in late September 2009 to replace gas pedals that could get stuck in floor mats and cause sudden acceleration.
"We better just hope that they can get NHTSA (National Highway Traffic Safety Administration) to work with us in coming (up) with a workable solution that does not put us out of business," Miller wrote.
The e-mail was addressed to Katsuhiko Koganei, executive coordinator for corporate communications for Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A. Inc.
"I hate to break this to you but WE HAVE A tendency for MECHANICAL failure in accelerator pedals of a certain manufacturer on certain models," Miller's e-mail began with several words in capital letters.
In a memo earlier that day, Koganei wrote Mike Michels, vice president of external communications, "Now I talked with you on the phone, we should not mention about the mechanical failures of acc. pedal because we have not clarified the real cause of the sticking acc pedal formally, and the remedy for the matter has not been confirmed."
Koganei further wrote that Toyota executives were concerned that news of the mechanical failures "might raise another uneasiness of customers."
The subject line said the e-mail was in regard to a draft statement to respond to an ABC News story.
Toyota, in a statement, said it "does not comment on internal company communications" and declined comment on Miller's e-mail. But the automaker said: "We have publicly acknowledged on several occasions that the company did a poor job of communicating during the period preceding our recent recalls."
"We have subsequently taken a number of important steps to improve our communications with regulators and customers on safety-related matters to ensure that this does not happen again," Toyota said, adding that it appointed a chief quality officer for North America and a greater role in the region for making safety-related decisions.
Miller, reached by phone at his home in Los Angeles, said he had no comment. His retirement was announced by Toyota on Dec. 16 and his retirement was effective Feb. 1.
The Transportation Department has assessed a record $16.4 million fine on Toyota for failing to alert the U.S. government to the safety problems about the sticking accelerator pedals quickly enough. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said Tuesday that Toyota made a "huge mistake" by not disclosing the safety problems sooner.
Concerns about sticking gas pedals and complaints from Toyota owners in the U.S. were rising at the end of 2009, according to documents obtained by the AP. The documents show that on Sept. 29, Toyota's European division issued technical information "identifying a production improvement and repair procedure to address complaints by customers in those countries of sticking accelerator pedals, sudden rpm increase and/or sudden vehicle acceleration."
Distributors throughout Europe and in Russia, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Turkey and Israel received the technical information.
In mid-January, Toyota held internal meetings "to discuss status of production changes and to prepare for meetings with NHTSA" on Jan. 19, according to the timeline. Two days later, Toyota announced it would recall 2.3 million vehicles to address the sticking pedals.
The documents obtained by the AP were among 70,000 pages of papers turned over to government investigators.
Toyota has recalled more than 6 million vehicles in the U.S. and a total of more than 8 million worldwide because of acceleration problems in multiple models and braking issues in the Prius hybrid.
The Japanese automaker was still weighing its options Wednesday about whether to accept or contest the fine. It has also been named in 138 potential class-action lawsuits over falling vehicle values and nearly 100 personal injury and wrongful death cases in federal courts.

What a joke. I hope they go under personally.

Just follow this for tomorrow morning :p
http://www.google.com/finance?q=TYO:7203
 
#2 ·
Hello Toyota.

You are hereby prohibited from selling any vehicles in the United States for the next 5 years.
At the end of the 5 year period, you will be allowed to resume selling your vehicles in the U.S. when you have shown that the failures have been addressed and you are selling cars worthy of sale in this country.

Thank you,
The United States Government.
 
#3 ·
I'm sick and ****in' tired of hearing about this ****. Toyota knew about the issue as far back as 2007, far as complaints I can find go. They where working with customers and techs to try and find a root cause and rule out driver error, which is why the floor mat deal came out.
People falsifying, bitching to the news, bitching to the Gov't won't fix the problem, but it will make a bigger stink.

Toyota did the right thing by saying 'hey, we're not building any more until we get this figured out', vs any other car company who wouldn't have stopped production and just done a mass recall for vehicles currently being built ... and hope for the best.

The media blitz is who people should be blaming, not Toyota. Their lack of investigative reporting and one sided stories have driven the public into a frenzy for no reason at all. Do you drive a Toyota? I don't.


Now where was all the media hype about the recent mass recall of Fords?
http://www.usrecallnews.com/2010/02/ford-recall-history-puts-toyota-recalls-in-perspective.html
Or how about GM?
http://media.gm.com/content/media/u...news/news_detail.print.GMCOM.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2010/Mar/0302_recall

People don't seem to realize that the media is the 'popular' media. They will only broadcast stories that will garner attention and drive their ratings up, which makes their ad time more valuable and sought after. It is just that simple.
 
#4 ·
GTFO.
:lol:
How does a company covering up their own ****ing tracks for huge problems make them worthy of being forgiven. No one in their right mind should be buying Toyota because of something like this. If it was Ford, I would be doing the same thing, I don't care who it is.
 
#8 ·
Ethnocentrism, or just racism.

Whatever it is, theres plenty of it here.

GM, Chrysler, and our own beloved Ford have done the same thing. Yet I've never once seen anyone on here advocate a prohibition on them being allowed to sell vehicles for 5 years.

They did what any red-blooded American would do, right? Maximize profit. Its all about the free market!!!!

The double standard here is so thick, I can cut it with a spoon.
 
#14 · (Edited)
I was partially kidding with my initial comment, but don't you think that might send a really clear message? Who would it hurt? Toyota mostly. Some of their employees, definitely. The car buying American public? No. There are plenty of other vehicles to buy... no problem there.

Is Toyota too big to fail?
I've had enough of that crap, thank you very much.

Ethnocentrism, or just racism.
I hope you weren't applying that to me, because I would think you'd know that is crap.
 
#11 ·
Yes, the media does blow things out of proportion, and they can be blamed for loads of bull**** scare tactics.

But, the FACTS are that Toyota has admitted to knowing about the problem 3 years ago. And instead of stopping sale until they figured out a fix, they continued production and let more faulty cars fly out the door.

/end thread
 
#17 ·
I could go into the emails of every major corp and find incriminating emails.

There are still not enough incidence of statistical significance to show that Toyota is anything but a top auto maker being attacked by Union friendly government.

Prove there are more than a handful of broken accelerators out millions and maybe Toyota can be called at fault. But a couple of hundred just doesn't count.
 
#19 ·
I could go into the emails of every major corp and find incriminating emails.

There are still not enough incidence of statistical significance to show that Toyota is anything but a top auto maker being attacked by Union friendly government.

Prove there are more than a handful of broken accelerators out millions and maybe Toyota can be called at fault. But a couple of hundred just doesn't count.
Seriously? "Maybe..."?

Who would be at fault then?


and the email is not "Incriminating"... it is admission of a coverup... :lol:

In a court of law, they would be found guilty of covering it up. Maybe... :lol:
 
#18 ·
Protectionsm..seriously?...

Toyota faffed about and knew they had a problem..Messing about just caused more folk to crash into roadside funiture.

They were caught and now pay the price on people across the world a little nervous into buying their product.
 
#20 ·
Yes, Toyota SHOULD have to endure some figurative Spanish Inquistion type of torture, because people died (inept drivers maybe, but still people) due to their insuffient engineering and testing regime. They are the automotive equivalent to Tiger Woods... everyone thought they were the paragon of safety and refinement of engineering and testing, blah, blah. Now we see, they are just as greedy and shifty as Tiger is randy... and hypocrites, because they cared more for protecting themselves than protecting their customers.

However, Toyota is not alone in the business of screwing anyone they can just to expand their finacial empire. That is, unfortunately, "business as usual" for ALL major, global, for-profit corporations
 
#123 · (Edited)
Yes, Toyota SHOULD have to endure some figurative Spanish Inquistion type of torture, because people died (inept drivers maybe, but still people) due to their insuffient engineering and testing regime.
That's the key right there (sorry if this has been repeated, I haven't yet read all 5 pages). Whatever happened to people learning how to handle emergencies behind the wheel? Jammed throttles aren't new. Heck, my parents, aunts, uncles, grandparents....all have stories about sticky throttle situations. Regardless whether the cause was a widespread manufacturing defect, or isolated mechanical failure; powering down the engine and pulling over always works (unless being chased by homicidal ninjas). The big squishy gray matter blob behind the wheel, should be able to deal with this type of contingency.

I'm not taking sides on the Toyota, fault thing. All manufacturers have bad engineering slip through to production, from time-to-time. They're fixing it.
 
#22 ·
Again... it is the length to which they have gone... and continue to go... to cover up, deflect, and dodge responsibility.

A 16 million dollar fine isn't enough to make Toyota, or any other car-maker really take notice... but a real punishment, like not being able to sell cars for a while... now THAT would get their attention, and the attention of every other car manufacturer (and beyond).
 
#25 ·
I am amazed that Toyota didn't say they will at least investigate all
possible angles of the acceleration issues. They flat out said, it is not an electrical
issue. Drive by wire, and you instantly ruled out the electronics having a part to play.
Really? :rolleyes:
 
#87 ·
Dude,.... Go buy a Toyota and wash the brown off the nose.
I'm not into the "Mass Hysteria" thing, but every post of yours in this thread has been made to defend a company that certainly wouldn't bother to give a rat's ass about anything but our money. Why so defensive?
At the very least, what happened to "rooting for the Home team", whether or not you belittle the opponent?
If you knew more about their history and "style" in manufacturing, you would realize how little they care.
:)
 
#29 · (Edited)
You could be a lot smarter... that's my conclusion.

Just one example...

The media blitz is who people should be blaming, not Toyota.
The media has made faulty parts and tried to cover it up for years? okay... that makes sense.... lets blame them. :lol:
 
#34 ·
You are a tool, and not too bright... that's my conclusion.

Just one example...



The media has made faulty parts and tried to cover it up for years? okay... that makes sense.... lets blame them. :lol:

Geeze you're dense.

If you'd be able to read between the lines you'd find that I'm saying 'what make Toyota any worse than any other automaker who has had a similar mass safety recall W/O the media attention'. Partly that the mass media has blown the Toyota situation way out of proportion, which may have lead to false claims (or revealed overly ignorant owners). I've never seen this kinda of attention paid to any large scale GM, VW, Ford, Chrysler recall.

... and somewhat of what would happen if this much attention where paid to actual human condition issues? Just think what might be possible if 5 minutes of your news broadcast where dedicated to someone in the community who does good deeds, say the local guy who feeds the homeless or helps the elderly. Basically something positive and productive on the news vs the deconstructive **** they broadcast nightly. But being no one can read between the lines I'd not expect you to read that far into things.
 
#33 ·
well, that's good to know. My chubby little paper boy doesn't even get out of the car, he just drops the paper on the walk.

*WHEW* Guess I'm safe. :)
Is it a Camry? Perhaps he can't stop... :dunno:
 
#36 · (Edited)
Either you are not very smart, or you don't know how to communicate.... probably both.

I'm supposed to infer from your prior postings, that you think the news should do 5 minutes on a "feel good" story? :lol:

News for you... my local new stations do a ridiculous amount of that type of story, because they have to fill their time with something other than the stuff they rehash every day.

and... I already pointed out what makes Toyota worse (in reference to the recalls) than any other auto manufacturer... perhaps you were too "dense" to understand it... or maybe you were too busy trying to read between the lines of what was clearly written.

Try again...
 
#41 ·
But why did Toyota do this?
Was it because they could not duplicate the problem? (yes, as they've stated)

A hardware issue (tires) and a software issue (DBW) are very different in diagnosis approach. With the hardware you can visually look at it and see the error and from that you can find a fix, or as Firestone did revert back to the old method of production. With software you have hours of code to dig through, you have to test the hardware and test for outside influences as well as trying to rule out user error. Not quite as easy and far more time consuming. And when you test the parts and nothing comes back with a problem you're left scratching your head, as seems to be the case prior. With the metal spacer fix it would seem that Americans have a heavier foot than expected and pushed the hardware past it's range of travel causing the problems, but not showing a system error that could be duplicated, partly because it was past what should have been the normal range of travel.

So if that is the case then what does that tell you?
Well it tells me that the design of the DBW and reason behind it's implementation had firm ground to stand on, but cannot change the poor driving habits of Americans. As I've said in the past, the DBW wire system was implemented to take you out of the equation as you are the problem. People have too heavy of a foot and this is partly the reason for high emissions and fuel consumption. You use a system that slows throttle response and you lower emissions and raise fuel economy, and the system can be tailored to fit to an extent by using an offset in the throttle peddle vs throttle plate reaction times (for performance cars it's nearly identical vs 'economy' cars the time is slowed to better MPG's).

So basically the tech's had to think like an idiot and abuse the throttle past the point of no return to duplicate the problem. So who's fault is it really?

I suppose if Toyota had better educated the buyers with more pictorial explanations of how the car worked, how much abuse you can put it through, how to properly drive, where the trash receptacle was, how to avoid getting caught robbing a bank, etc. that these problems wouldn't of occurred.
Or if we go back further I could guess that if people just drove better in general and understood engines and emissions better that the whole DBW system would of been implemented (same goes for ABS, SRS, TPMS, etc.).
It comes to the question of how much is enough. How much does one have to protect the idiot and how many systems have to be designed to protect them form themselves and at what point will they learn that their life is in their own hands as well as others hands and have some compassion for mankind and think about their actions and the implications on future generations.


Idiot over and out.
 
#42 ·
None of that addresses the problem we are discussing.

The problem we are discussing is not a fault in a part, or software.
The problem is not a heavy foot.
The problem is not being unable to figure out what is wrong.

The problem IS not admitting there is a problem, and sweeping it under the rug for YEARS, and only FINALLY coming clean when it was determined they couldn't hide it any longer.

The difference, once again, and in plain english, is how Toyota has willfully hidden their knowledge of a faulty system (be it mechanical or software), and made every effort to protect themselves instead of the consumers of their products.

Try again...
 
#43 ·
^^^^^ Agreed 100%

Not only that but why is that other DBW systems are not having this problem if it's because of "American's poor driving habits?"

That entire argument is ridiculous. Do you work for Toyota? If not, you should.
 
#44 · (Edited)
^^^^^ Agreed 100%

Not only that but why is that other DBW systems are not having this problem if it's because of "American's poor driving habits?"

That entire argument is ridiculous. Do you work for Toyota? If not, you should.
Boogity.
 
#46 ·
How can you fix a problem if you can't replicate it?


I don't know how you can't understand that question/situation. There was noting swept under the rug, cover up or otherwise. It was simply they where unable to make the problem happen. So it fell to being called user error and pushed to the back of the line. And it's not like we're talking about huge numbers of people reporting problems early on either, about 1 in 100,000 (or there abouts).


Now looking into the Irv Miller fellow --> http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/document/LA_Times_questions_and_Toyota_answers.pdf

Seems somewhat odd that he's flipping sides. Being he's primarily a media liaison I'm wondering how credible he really is. Maybe he's only voicing the opinion of the opposition now because he's trying to cover his ass because he's the point man to the media (blame the first guy you see kinda deal).
 
#47 ·
How can you fix a problem if you can't replicate it?


I don't know how you can't understand that question/situation. There was noting swept under the rug, cover up or otherwise. It was simply they where unable to make the problem happen. So it fell to being called user error and pushed to the back of the line. And it's not like we're talking about huge numbers of people reporting problems early on either, about 1 in 100,000 (or there abouts).
BULL****!

They didn't acknowledge the problem. They denied there was a problem.
That is the DEFINITION of sweeping it under the rug! :lol:

It's not about replicating the problem... it's about denying there is one.

How is it that you don't understand that? :lol:

Scenario 1:
We know there is a problem, but are unsure of how to fix it. We are working on it though.

Scenario 2:
What problem? There is no problem!
*crickets for 3 years*
Hey, um... we decided there is a problem now, and we need to recall MILLIONS of vehicles. Umm... we're sorry?

Which scenario did they follow?