Re: Spec Series Testing

Don't you think it's important to design the spec with as much input as possible from people who know the car best, and know what mods are most effective? Also, this is probably the group who are most likely to want to participate with a Focus, assuming that you do it justice. It just seems odd IMO to want to cut off the discussion at this point when there is still so much time left in the development process. You've done one not so complete test, gotten roughly 50 posts of commentary/suggestions and you're just going to take it from there? Ford doesn't have the best track record with doing right by the Focus and I'd hate to see that happen again.

I'm not saying you have to listen to all the ideas that are given, but this group definitely has knows what they are talking about in regards to tracking a Focus. If you design the spec so that the Focus ends up being an "also-ran" as opposed to a real competitor in the series, why even bother with the effort?

>8^)
ER

 

Re: Spec Series Testing

NASA has a lot of experience in starting and running a racing series.

 

Re: Spec Series Testing

I'm very familiar with NASA and what they have done, thanks.

>8^)
ER

 

Re: Spec Series Testing

I'm very familiar with NASA and what they have done, thanks.

>8^)
ER

Okay Great.

 

Re: Spec Series Testing

I can tell already with your current attitude that your chances of building a successful Spec Focus is going to have as much success as the real NASA's shuttle launch did this week.

Seems like a shame to put the blinders on and think you and your group know everything, but I won't continue to argue. I see that so far it's getting a lot of people no where, and I have better things to do.

>8^)
ER

 

Re: Spec Series Testing

I'm going to have to agree with you Erik...

One car a spec series does not make. If you wish, do things your own way, but do not count on this focus community's support. You are tossing out more track time and racing experience than you can imagine.

 

Re: Spec Series Testing

Thanks for your time and work with trying to get a Focus spec series going. Try to not let all the negativity get to you.

If you decide to look for input again my vote will always be for the cheapest route.

 

Re: Spec Series Testing

Is NASA a sponsor, or affiliated in any way with Focaljet.com?

 

Re: Spec Series Testing

One car a spec series does not make.

Actually table, I think that IS what makes a SPEC SERIES. Rabbit, Golf, Renault, Miata, Spec Ford RACER, Spec Renault... Oh wait. I see what you mean.

 

Re: Spec Series Testing

Dave, thanks for the chuckle. I needed that.

 

Re: Spec Series Testing

Is NASA a sponsor, or affiliated in any way with Focaljet.com?

It was going to be. I have talked to Ron of Focaljet and we would very much like to be affiliated with Focaljet. We're working on some ideas.

 

Re: Spec Series Testing

Thanks for your time and work with trying to get a Focus spec series going. Try to not let all the negativity get to you.

If you decide to look for input again my vote will always be for the cheapest route.

Thank you for your support. I know it's really hard to please everyone. I guess just like everything else you’re going to have people with negative things to say….. But, for right now we’re just going to go forward with these test. We feel we’re pretty close where we wanted to be right now.

 

Re: Spec Series Testing

After all the testing as been completed, I will try to let everyone know how the test went. NASA along with help from Ford Racing, F2 Focus, and Gillis Motorsports will perform these test at the following tracks and times.

This makes it sound like the series is being set up only for the benefit of the parties involved.

 

Re: Spec Series Testing

After all the testing as been completed, I will try to let everyone know how the test went. NASA along with help from Ford Racing, F2 Focus, and Gillis Motorsports will perform these test at the following tracks and times.

This makes it sound like the series is being set up only for the benefit of the parties involved.

really? it sounds to me like those are the only people who stepped up to the plate to provide aftermarket support.

can we just let this die and see what happens? if the tests go as well as everyone involved hopes they do, then the series will get sanctioning and there will be a specification. whether or not someone wants to try out a new spec series is up to them. so far there are only a VERY small handful of people here (gary, sean and leo, anyone else?) doing W2W in a focus, which leads me to believe that the majority of the participants in this series will not be sourced from this site or even Focus Challenge even if the series pandered to every whim and desire posted on this board.

Ted, good luck on your testing and please post the results. if i were in your shoes right now i'd personally thank the individuals who gave criticism and analysis that was constructive or productive, and just leave it all at that. no more no less. there's no point in trying to justify anything at this point.

 

Re: Spec Series Testing

s2d2 and Ted,
The point that some are trying to make is that the current "Specs" of the PROPOSED Spec Series seem to be designed around a Formula that came from one source, w/o too much research, and that the starting post of this thread expresses a "Closed door policy" to further input from those who DO have many miles of experience w/ the Focus, whether it be W2W or simply open track days under great duress.
EVERYONE here would like to see a SUCCESSFUL Focus Spec Series.
We ALL KNOW that money does the talking.
We ALSO know that MORE money and CONTINUED Success will depend on Experience, which cannot be quantified in terms of Money.
To deny the input of Experience and FELLOW Enthusiasts would be fine if one were doing a Solo project.
For a Spec Series, it MAY be lacking in Wisdom, if the attitudes expressed are genuine and not mistaken.
I have formed NO judgement personally, aside from the fact that the previously posted proposed Suspension would be less than adequate and should be reconsidered, IF it hasn't already.

 

Re: Spec Series Testing

i'm not trying to defend either party. i'm trying to get everyone to play nice, or go to the other end of the playground. chances are i'll never race a spec focus, nor will i ever go to a focus challenge event. i just feel like this forum has suddenly been overrun by egos (on all sides) and i don't particularly like it. everyone DOES want it, you are certainly correct, they just want it THEIR way.

this thread is the culmination of a few weeks of discussion, and any "closed door policy" came about due to the failure to collaborate from the parties involved. so yeah, i think it just needs to leave the board and we'll just have to wait to see what happens.

 

Re: Spec Series Testing

I agree wholeheartedly on the "Play Nice Policy".
I'm here, along with others, to enforce that if things get toooo rough.
I HAVE read the discussions on the board, even if I haven't posted too much.
I still feel that Open Discussion can be a valuable asset despite the lack of complete consensus.

 

Re: Spec Series Testing

After all the testing as been completed, I will try to let everyone know how the test went. NASA along with help from Ford Racing, F2 Focus, and Gillis Motorsports will perform these test at the following tracks and times.

This makes it sound like the series is being set up only for the benefit of the parties involved.

Right now the parties involved are the ones building test cars. I have one Focus (2.3)for testing only, and will be using parts that Ford Racing has sent me, and Ricardo (F2) is building one (Zetec) from scratch right now with help from Andrew Gillis. Andrew Gillis is also going to be one of our test drivers. Andrew has a lot of seat time in a Focus Race Car and the feedback we get from him will be great. We will also have other NASA Race Car drivers testing the cars as well. These will be independent drivers that will not be driving in the Spec Series. But, they will be qualified Race Car Drivers who race in one of NASA’s small-bore series. This way we can get a non-biases opinion of what we have and the parts we are using.

I would love to have others to step up and help out. If someone else would like to make a test car that would be great. We have a few more test days left. There are two models I would like to test before the end of the year and that is a SVT and/or a 2.0 Duratec Focus. I know some people from Ford Racing is testing a SVT Focus…. But it would be nice to have a 2.0 Duratec Focus out there as well.

I would also like to see more aftermarket companies join in as well. If any aftermarket company wants to get some of their parts eligible for the series, please feel free to email me. We will have some restrictions, like rear sway bars, They will have to match the same size we plan on using. Some parts can be easy to be eligible, like a CAI system not a lot of gain there.

Also, to let everyone know about the name of the series. That name has not been announced yet because NASA is getting a name copyrighted. The name Spec Series is somewhat misleading, because a real spec series would be one model, one engine. This is not what this series will have…. Ford Racing has told us they wanted to use all Focus Models (Except SOHC). So, right now we’ll call it the Focus “Spec” Series, but that will change. It might be something like “Focus Racing Series sponsor by Ford Racing”. That will be announced later.

Again, If someone would like to get involved in the testing phase, and want to build a test car. Please feel free to email me. It would be great to have another car out there for NASA officials and test drivers to test. Also, anyone is welcome to watch these test as well.

 

Re: Spec Series Testing

I have formed NO judgement personally, aside from the fact that the previously posted proposed Suspension would be less than adequate and should be reconsidered, IF it hasn't already.

We will be looking into other suspensions, but Ford Racing has said that two of there drivers (employees) have been using Dynamic Suspension in SCCA SSC Series and all parties feel that they will be good for this series, But Ford is not the Sanctioning Body of the series, and NASA (not just myself) will have the final say what suspension will be used.

 

Re: Spec Series Testing

I hope Ted's above post clears up some of the confusion about the aftermarket involvement. Apparently a proposal was floated to the aftermarket community and the current companies involved were the ones that accepted the request. That is what I've been told and don't have any information that it wasn't.

From my understanding, based on a phone conversation with Ted, is this does NOT mean that other companies will be shut out from supplying parts to series participants.

My suggestion was to allow companies to submit parts for approval. Then racers could mix and match their own set-up from a list of pre-approved parts from several aftermarket manufacturers.

Of course some things, like springs, will need to be more tightly controlled. But, for example, almost ANY CAI should be able to be used... as long as it's been reviewed and approved by NASA.

This feeding frenzy on misinformation needs to be toned down. Once the series' Official specs are released THEN I could understand debate to proceed.

NASA, and the people building the cars, are using THEIR time, money and resources on this project. They are entitled to do it ANY WAY THEY WANT.

If they misjudge the market for this series, THEY will bear the brunt of it.

I don't want to come off as too harsh, but talk is cheap. Unless someone is prepared to put their money where their mouth is and either build their own test car OR start their OWN series, then I think they need to realize that their input is limited.

The FC guys wanted to do a series the way THEY thought it should be done. I applaud the effort and that is why FJ has backed the FC mission from the beginning... and will continue to do so.

The "spec Focus" series is no different. It's not "open source". NASA has the right to listen (hopefully) or not listen to anyone that is not officially involved with the project.

It has been said, in this very thread, but let me reiterate... there may not actually be that many current FJ members that would even eventually race in this series. However, there may be racers out there that will be drawn to the Focus and eventually become part of the FJ family. That will only make the Focus aftermarket stronger.

There is room here for autocrossers, track day junkies, spec racers and even World Challenge drivers.

 

Re: Spec Series Testing

Once the series' Official specs are released THEN I could understand debate to proceed.

The problem there is that once the official specs have been released, they will be very difficult to change. What happens when someone is building a car to the specs, only to find out that the specs just changed.

 

Re: Spec Series Testing

I second that. Sorry, and no disrespect intended, but now is *exactly* the time to be talking about this - ie, *before* the rules are finalized.

I understand that some of the 'debate' we've been having hasn't been entirely productive, but...sorry, I think the parties involved thus far need to grow a thicker skin. If you're posting in a public forum, I think most anyone would see that as an invitation to discussion, no? Is it really reasonable to expect everyone to agree with you?

Regardless of the number of potential entrants from the [FJ] ranks, you're still talking to a couple dozen people who have run these cars on tracks, and in most cases - run them hard. We know what breaks, what works, what doesn't...to turn your back on actual on-track Focus experience is a little shortsighted, IMO.

As for the invitation to build a test car, and the implicit 'put up or shut up;' I'm sorry, not all of us out there (including those of us who are seriously considering this series) have the means to build a car that might need even more money poured into it to compete in a series that has an uncertain future. NASA's experience with spec series - at least here in the east - has not been anything to write home about.

It's your/NASA's series, and your call to make in the end, but to suggest that the conversation should stop doesn't give too many here the warm fuzzies.

Good luck. I sincerely hope that it succeeds.

 

Re: Spec Series Testing

Some of these posts sound like it was a flame fest in here. Maybe I missed something... but I don't see that it was. Maybe some strong opinions were experessed, but it's all been mature and professional.

A little debate never hurt anything.

I understand that only a few aftermarket companies "stepped up to the plate".... but so what? Are the organizers trying to set up a spec, or trolling for freebies for their cars? I mean, if a Koni shock would be better, for example, why would they be excluded? Just buy a set and try them. I realize that the organizers don't really have all the money in the world to buy every part available for testing. But it's not big leap to assume that something like a Koni yellow would be better than a more street oriented shock.

Pure example, and I'm not necessarily suggesting the spec should use Konis. It just appears that the spec will be determined by who gave the organizers free stuff?

If I missed that, and the parts were all paid for and chosen for some other reason, then forgive me.

Furthermore, the expressions about "the rest of you aren't actually building test cars, so you don't have a say"

Uh... most of us have had "test cars" for years now, they just weren't built specifically to test the proposed spec. We know what works, we've been at this for 4-5 years now.

The proposed spec has a target set where the cars would have laptimes somewhat slower than SM for example. Yet some of us have cars that will already run with SM's, and don't have that much money into them. Why not copy the winning formulas?

We all want this to succeed. And this is all constructive criticism. Please don't take it as anything but that.

I think the series could be a HUGE success, if done right. The Focus is cheap to buy, parts are affordable, it's fun to drive, and the performance potential is there. It should be able to surpass Spec Rabbit, Spec Sentra, etc... and be the premier FWD spec class.

 

Re: Spec Series Testing

Once the series' Official specs are released THEN I could understand debate to proceed.

The problem there is that once the official specs have been released, they will be very difficult to change. What happens when someone is building a car to the specs, only to find out that the specs just changed.

Who in their right mind would be building a car for a series that hasn't even been officially announced yet?

 

Re: Spec Series Testing

you dont now some of this crowd then...several people are starting to look for very used cars to start a build for 07...and right mind..no one in their right mind owns a race car....