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Discussion Starter #1
Just as suspected, which confuses me even more now

Tests done at 43.5psi and 100% duty cycle, so this is the max

P, i remember you said before the stocks were 20lb...NO, sorry.

Stock focus injectors came back from RC and flowed 190cc, which is 18.1 lb/hr

The green injectors from ford, labelled 20lb(off a stock euro contour i believe), flowed 210cc, which is 20.0 lb/hr

SO....this means that theres something special about this car because at 173whp, nader's car went down to low 12:1 a/f all the way to 7500rpm with the green, 20lb/hr injectors

Every formula i use and do, even at the extremes, says NO way will they support that power, at least 25lb injectors are necessary.

Does this mean the car is just runing at over 100% duty cycle?

For this to work, the formula gives me a BSFC of about .35, which should be impossible on a NA car, it has to be around .45-.50

Guys, WTF is going on? How is the car possibly getting enough fuel? I will be testing my duty cycle today finally with the scanner.

His car also hit 4.15volts, so theres plenty of MAfS to go, but it seems like the car is somehow sqeezing more fuel through those injectors then physically possible.

Anyone have any idea as far as whats going on? Is it possible for the computer to run the injectors at more than 100% duty cycle?

The formula does say however that if you run it at 110% duty cycle, with pressure of 43psi(what is the stock fuel presure at the rail BTW??) it will only need 20.3lb/hr injectors to support 170whp

So is the ecu just forcing more than 100% duty cycle through the injectors?? If so, how bad is that?

WHAT IS THE PSI at the fuel rail on a focus???

[ 10-18-2002, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: nazthug ]
 

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Originally posted by nazthug:

P, i remember you said before the stocks were 20lb...NO, sorry.

Stock focus injectors came back from RC and flowed 190cc, which is 18.1 lb/hr
??
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BTW....I thought Rob just bet you a BeeeeILLION dollars, that the stocks were a little over 18lbs/hr, as DFL said, as ChipGuy said ages ago and.......as you just revealed

but thanks for eliminating any and all doubt


[ 10-18-2002, 04:46 PM: Message edited by: ZXmurph ]
 

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doh!

[ 10-18-2002, 04:46 PM: Message edited by: ZXmurph ]
 

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Originally posted by nazthug:
Stock focus injectors came back from RC and flowed 190cc, which is 18.1 lb/hr
Does this mean the car is just runing at over 100% duty cycle?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">18 lb/hr has been said MANY times.

100% duty cycle means open for the whole period of time. How do you open longer than time allows?
 

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Discussion Starter #7
no...and yes

Before, i found 2 posts where rob said they were around 20lb

Then he said 18lb

and a few others said 16lb

and from the "FORD" i spoke to said 16lb

But hey, i didnt do the test to find out the stocks, i wanted to compare them to the injectors i am about to get.

Now, please discuss how the hell we are all supporting WAY more WHP then our injectors are mathematically capable off, are we way over 100% duty cycle, and if so, how bad is it????

BTW, i found the psi at the fuel rail maxes out at 43psi, so the tests were dead on, because they were tested at about 43psi
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Originally posted by FastraxTurbo:
Tee in a fuel pressure gauge. Watch what happens after 5500 RPM
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">>??????????



Jon, please do explain, im not quiet following you?? Are you saying the computer boosts fuel pressure? ANd if so, exactly what is involved, how does it do it, how far will it go and what will it support up to? So basically, once the injectors go to 100% duty cycle, the ecu boosts pressure? Just a guess, correct me if im wrong. So it IS possible to get fuel at the same 100% cycle, on the same injectors with more fuel pressure, and if that is so, is that good, bad or normal????

If so, will it turn out that even with my stock injectors, i should have enough fuel????

COME TO THINK OF IT JON....funny how you said 5500rpm...because when i go WOT, EXACTLY at 5500rpm, EVERYTIME, my a/f guage goes to FULL RICH

hmmmm.....this is NEWS to me

And if you can, also explain how more than a dozen of us are making more power than our injectors are SUPPOSED to be capable of???

Nader just hit 173whp on those EXACT same 20lb green injectors, and he went rich from 5000-7500rpm, down to 12:1 a/f

WTF is going on?????????????

Is our BSFC like .30???

[ 10-18-2002, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: nazthug ]
 

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Did you pick 43.5 PSI out of thin air or what? Do you think your fuel system never runs above 43.5 PSI. Don't you recall discussions of fuel pressures up to 70 or 80 PSI?
Maybe there's more fuel flowing there? I'm too lazy to dig out formulas relating flow to pressure and all that. I'll leave that up to you (hint, they're in those "book" things
). Maybe you should call your injector guy back and have him re-flow them at 70 or 80 PSI @ 100% open and see how much fuel they flow.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
70-80psi??? SO what everyone has been saying about the ford focus only supporting 140whp or so stock is not true? About tom saying it wont go over 140whp is not true? If that is true, that it will go that high stock, who even needs fuel management for a JRSC even at 7-8psi, other than the need for a bigger mafs to scale down the 5volt cuttof???

Umm...as far a i know, our fuel pressure AT THE FUEL rail at idle is 37psi or so, at WOT its about 42-44psi

But maybe like jon says, it goes above that after 5500rpm"??

Im not sure, but so far, that seems to be the ONLY explanation as to how both ME and NADER go FULL rich after 5000rpm

But then you have RUSSELL< who is runing 150whp, and leans out past 14:1 after 5500rpm

SO WHAT THE **** IS GOING ON????

Im gonna be testing everything today with the scanner

[ 10-18-2002, 05:36 PM: Message edited by: nazthug ]
 

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Originally posted by nazthug:

Now, please discuss how the hell we are all supporting WAY more WHP then our injectors are mathematically capable off, are we way over 100% duty cycle, and if so, how bad is it????
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">100% is ALL of it. Please Naz, tell me that you get the concept of the WHOLE thing. ALL of it. DUTY CYCLE ONLY GOES TO 100%.

As for your other question:
Maybe you don't have as much HP as you think.
How good is the calibration on the Dyno?

I'm not saying that it's bad, but it is a way to explain it.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
ummm..no sorry, that is not the case here

There are DOZENS of people on here with 155-160whp

My dyno was DEAD on, trust me, along with like 10 other cars that dynoed that same day, same time

Nader dynoed his car on another dyno, and hit 173whp with 20lb injectors....

and so did MANY other people

So are you saying that it should go that high? If thats the case, we better start doing some research, because IT IS GOING THAT HIGH

I want to learn more about this fuel pressure thing jon mentions and the other guy with 70-80psi


please guys educate me, i really wanna know this and put an end to this and get my car setup, im not joking, so please, no funny posts
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Originally posted by CharlesWA:
Naz, why do you think Jon wants you to put a fuel pressure guage on your car and watch what it does? Do you honestly think the computer is going to REDUCE the pressure below your magical 43.5 PSI?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">im not the magician, this is just typical of what i hear on focaljet from fairly knowledgeble guys....everyone says it maxes out at 42-43psi

Plus thats what RC tests ALL their injectors at....

I never knew the pump will go over that, making the 99.9% of the claim that a focus wont support over 140whp NOT TRUE

Do you not agree that mostly EVERYONE here has said that the stock fuel system wont support over 140whp, EVEN THE oohh so FAMOUS TURBO TOM who basically swears by it/????

Im definetly not defying anyone, i really hope you guys dont see that way, because I DONT KNOW< i am trying to figure out THATS WHY I POSTED this and asked THESE questions, if you guys can help me out, that would be great, cause i wanna know, please dont see this the wrong way

I am just trying to figure out why these cars are going rich, when all along everyone says it should be impossible??
 

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Naz if you want my help lets loose the OOHH SO FAMOUS TURBO TOM if you dont want my thoughts just say so and i will stay our of your posts

if you set you engine at lets say 3000rpm and the fuel psi is say 42 and the duty cycle is 35

if you rais the fuel psi from 42 to 55 you duty cycle will come down to about 28 or so

what i am saying is as the fuel psi raises the duty cycle drops

the 140 to 145 hp on the cars that i have had here both hit 96 to 100%duty cycle we dont like to see anything over 92%

tom
 

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Discussion Starter #16
tom....im just playin man..

but you are..>OH so famous...right now at least...

FA-BO-LO-US...



Ok, but TOM, here is my question

You say those cars are 140whp , and 90% duty cycle, i know this already, a long time ago

BUT, whats next? What psi is that at? And as the HP increases, does the computer increase psi, to not keep the injectors at 100% duty cycle???

I think that is what jon is implying, and alot of people are saying now that the fuel DOES go above 43psi...so , DOES IT? IT should be a VERY simple question, im not sure why its so hard to answer some of my questions....

Or do you guys not understand what i am trying to get at???


[ 10-18-2002, 06:54 PM: Message edited by: nazthug ]
 

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Discussion Starter #18
TOM>..thats not the question

I know those cars hit 140whp at 90% or whatebver

but my question goes past that, what happens next?

What happens when the focus hits 100%? It sounds like some people are saying that it increases fuel PSI past 43psi...is this true? I think thats what jon is trying to say

That so far seems to be the only explanation to why we are pushing WAY over 140whp and still running rich???

Does it really go past 43psi?

If not, who to believe????

Why is this so difficult to understand and answer? ? Am i really not clear???
 

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I just bought some 96 LB injectors a few days ago and was curious as to how much horsepower they can handle??

No, they are not installed and Yes, they are for my Turbo
 

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You've got an OBD II scanner. Use it to monitor your fuel pressure at WOT. Answer your own question. That way you don't have to believe anyone else.
You say you know your HP. If you know your fuel pressure, injector size, and MAF voltage you have all of the answers.
 
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