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Long long note on Gingerman, handling, wheels and tires etc.

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I went to Gingerman last Saturday for an OT event and had some interesting observation/questions on handling of a stock Focus on street V's R tires and some general wheel tire comments as well, I'll be interested in what other people think.

First street wheels and tires. I'm utterly amazed that people are running 17x7's with 205 or 215 section tires on basically stock Foci. I had bought a set of SHM 17x7's that I was going to put on my car for daily use, now I guess I'll e-bay them. As I live in Michigan I've met too many people who end up with square wheels on Foci when running such low profile tires, so I decided to go with 16's instead. I bought a set of Cougar 16 x 6 1/2 six spoke wheels as I've always like the styling and I know Ford ran some Foci with these wheels on durability up at MPG (Michigan proving grounds) As such I thought they were the correct offset, but I guess I was wrong, while I haven't measured it and can't find it yet, it seems that the wheels have more offset than the stock ones do. I don't like the extra torque steer and tugging at the wheels or tendency to try and climb up the camber of the road from the increase in scrub radius. These factors could be made worse by the tall tires that I've got currently which I'll come to next. What are other peoples experience? Also the weight seems to be an issue. These wheels and tires weighed in at 39lb's V's 33lb's for the stock 15's according to my bathroom scales. I can't decide if I can really feel the extra weight, or if it's a combination of the taller gearing and offset. But I 'think' I can feel the extra mass when accelerating and over poor road surfaces. No matter what, when I come to look for some new correct sized tires weight will definitely be a consideration.

Tires, a friend bought some old SVT Contour wheels to use for snow tires on his SVTF, they came with some part worn 205/55 16 Yokohama AVSI's which he didn't need, he gave them to me to burn up at Gingerman as I didn't want to put any more R tires on my Focus until I have some -ve camber (see comments below). So, even though they are too tall I mounted them and have been driving them for the last couple of weeks.

OK, now back to the original point of this note, on track handling. First, I don't claim to be the next Schumacher or anything but I would like to consider myself a competent track driver with a fair amount of OT, autocross and race experience. That said I've only OT'd my Focus once before, at Waterford Hills last year. Then it was totally stock with the exception of 205/50 15 Victorracers on it. At that time the car handled as I'd expected, neutral to understeer but very predictable. It totally destroyed the outside edge of the front tires, to the point where I rotated a different tire onto the front left every session and had corded all four by the end of the day. Because I didn't want to destroy the (used) Hoosiers I've now picked up for it, which are far more camber sensitive than Khumo's, I'll save them until I do something with the suspension. I decided to just use the AVSI's I mentioned above. I had no clue as to what to use for tire pressures so I started at 45f 40r cold, through the day I came down and down until I was at 45f 39r hot. The thing that amazed me was how much different the car handled than with R tires, forget the lack of grip, what got me was how loose the car was. It was very very easy to rotate the car with a trailing throttle or trail braking. In the first session it was almost scary, with lower tire pressures and more confidence it was fun later in the day, but I was glad this was an OT day not a race where mid corner changes may have been needed. I just could not believe how willing the car was to rotate, my ITC Fiesta never rotated so willingly. So, when people are talking about adding a larger rear bar, are you doing this with an other wise stock suspension on the track with street? If so I'm surprised, it might work at autocross speeds, but I'd be amazed for track speeds.

My thinking for this behavior is that with R tires the lateral grip was sufficient that the weight transfer allowed enough roll that the front suspension to get to the point where it was in an unfavorable part of the camber curve. The result being that the front looses grip first hence the predictable understeer. With the street tires the front stays in a more favorable part of the camber curve so can work more efficiently compared to the rear. I assume that the rear has a better range of usable travel than the front so works equally well on street or R tires. Am I on the right track here?

Now, while I have allot of track experience I've only once been to Gingerman before, about six years ago in a rental Contour so I don't even begin to know the track yet, but wow, turn 2 is really difficult. I was trying different lines all day and was never happy. I just couldn't find the right balance between where to turn in and where to apex. Many times I turned in and was still on a trailing throttle about 1/3 of the way through and the back started to come round, but If I got on the gas any sooner I was missing the apex and running wide. If I tried turning in later I'd find myself carrying too much speed and not being able to apex so I had to scrub speed. If I turned in early I'd apex too early and kill my exit. I'm not explaining this very well, but how the heck do you take that corner? On the whole I love the track, there doesn't seem to be one 'right' line, you seem to have a choice of several possibilities as to how to take different sections. I'm really looking forward to going back and learning more next year.

Thanks for reading my ramblings, I'd appreciate any feedback or comments people may have.

Adrian Thompson
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interesting ramble
As to #2 at Gingerman
Turn two has all that extra surface just like an autocross turn. Don't pay attention to it. You need a balanced into--outof line with a mid to late apex. The speed out is more important than the speed in so setting the car up for a better exit speed would seem appropriate. This is due to the greater distance to turn three I believe. There is just a short burst from one to two, and you have some congestion with the pit entry on occasion, that will compromise your time and line. Getting it right out is the focus.
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This is Adrian from V company right?

First street wheels and tires. I'm utterly amazed that people are running 17x7's with 205 or 215 section tires on basically stock Foci. I had bought a set of SHM 17x7's that I was going to put on my car for daily use, now I guess I'll e-bay them.
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Err, yeah, I take it you've seen what I did right?


Once these tires are used up, I'll be getting 17" r compounds for the track, and use my 16"ers for the street. It is rediculous in Detroit to run 17" tires.

Love the look, but damn.

As such I thought they were the correct offset, but I guess I was wrong, while I haven't measured it and can't find it yet, it seems that the wheels have more offset than the stock ones do. I don't like the extra torque steer and tugging at the wheels or tendency to try and climb up the camber of the road from the increase in scrub radius.
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I don't understand that. First, they should be very close to the stock offset, I think 49 vs. 52. So I can't imagine you'd notice any difference.

I'm running 45 right now, and I can't really feel anything. Even with the Quaife.

It totally destroyed the outside edge of the front tires, to the point where I rotated a different tire onto the front left every session and had corded all four by the end of the day.
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Wow, stock suspension right? That's probably why. You're running 0* camber, and roll a lot. Makes sense. I'd say most of us on track have at least lowering springs. So we start out with -1* of camber, and don't roll as much. I've certainly never experienced that problem. But my first track event I had Konis and Eibach.

The thing that amazed me was how much different the car handled than with R tires, forget the lack of grip, what got me was how loose the car was. It was very very easy to rotate the car with a trailing throttle or trail braking. In the first session it was almost scary, with lower tire pressures and more confidence it was fun later in the day, but I was glad this was an OT day not a race where mid corner changes may have been needed. I just could not believe how willing the car was to rotate, my ITC Fiesta never rotated so willingly.
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Very very good hypothesis. I can back that up... my car is like night and day dry vs. wet. It's perfectly balanced in the dry, but in the rain it's like it's on casters in the back. Same thing. Less cornering, less roll, better camber up front.

So, when people are talking about adding a larger rear bar, are you doing this with an other wise stock suspension on the track with street? If so I'm surprised, it might work at autocross speeds, but I'd be amazed for track speeds.
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Yes, some people drive like that.

I now absolutely recommend AGAINST running big rear swaybars on otherwise stock suspensions. ABSOLUTELY NOT Don't do it.

Not for control problems either... for your rear control arms.

Now, while I have allot of track experience I've only once been to Gingerman before, about six years ago in a rental Contour so I don't even begin to know the track yet, but wow, turn 2 is really difficult. I was trying different lines all day and was never happy. I just couldn't find the right balance between where to turn in and where to apex. Many times I turned in and was still on a trailing throttle about 1/3 of the way through and the back started to come round, but If I got on the gas any sooner I was missing the apex and running wide. If I tried turning in later I'd find myself carrying too much speed and not being able to apex so I had to scrub speed. If I turned in early I'd apex too early and kill my exit. I'm not explaining this very well, but how the heck do you take that corner? On the whole I love the track, there doesn't seem to be one 'right' line, you seem to have a choice of several possibilities as to how to take different sections. I'm really looking forward to going back and learning more next year.
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Err, yeah. If you ever figure it out, let me know.
I've been there about 5 times, and still can't get it. There is no way through there. It's basically a throw away. Whatever you can do to get through, and get onto that straight... that's what you do. I think there is not one line, it's such a peculiar corner, every car is different.
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A few comments:

Cougar wheels are 46mm offset. Or at least the 15" ones are. The offset is stamped right on the backs of Ford wheels, in most cases. Stock offset of a Focus is 52.5mm.

Rear bar: As I wrote waaaay back when I installed my bars on my car, the car is not properly balanced with just an Eibach rear bar on it. I have both the front and rear on mine. I'd love to see how it handles on-track, but I don't take my no-cage daily driver onto tracks. As it is, I've never had any trouble taking 90mph sweepers with the car as it is now (yes, I'm still talking about "not on track." Ahem...
), but I've never used R-compounds on the car. As it stands, my car is setup similar to our ITC car - keep your right foot on the floor and you're ok, a trait which is (to me) good in low-powered cars like the Focus and the ITC car. If you have to lift, modulate carefully and be sure to get back on it fast to catch it. As I said, though, I've never tracked my Focus, but I'd like to.

And this thread just adds fuel to the desire to drive G-man someday. Oddly I've never been there - I was always injured when it was G-man time for our karting season.
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Oh, forgot to mention this. It is entirely true that many of the street setups out here (including mine) may not work on a track. I had made a change to the ITC car that made it feel great on the roads around our house. Turned out it was a deathtrap on the track. After reviewing the in-car footage with our driver, I realized that the car was a mess that weekend and I should have simply removed the rear bar to try and combat the spring change we had made. I could see from my vantage point as crew that is wasn't right, but seeing it in-car really drove home the point. Oops.
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BRZX3R
I am now wishing I would have made it down to GingerMan for that event. My dad's friend was down there that weekend with a red 85 SVO.

Anyway, I have no clue what is the best way to take turn 2. I just try and stay in the middle of the corner. I have talked to a few guys that ran Track-Time at that track, and they really did not have a definite answer on it. I like turns 5-6-7! The 8-9 transistion can be scary in a stock focus, and I have gone round and round there in my mustang a few years ago. This past June, I took my focus with r compound tires and ran against my dad's stock SVT focus. The bigger brakes on the SVT really helped going into 11 and turn 1. Besides that advantage, the r-compound tires allowed me to go way faster around the corners than the bridgestone potenza shod SVT.
GingerMan is always a fun time, and I can't wait for next summer to get back out there. The track is way more fun that gratten.
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Thanks for all the replies everyone. Yes Rob, you have the right Adrian.

I guess I'll have to take the wheels off and measure them, but they appear to be allot further out than the stock. It's hard to compare with Rob's picture because he's got a fair amount of negative camber compared to none on mine, but the Cougar wheels look to be at least as far out as those, probably more so. Bu as other people don't have an issue perhaps it's because I'm running 205/55 rather than 205/50 16's?

I'm not too concerned as to how the car handled as I know I want to do something with it. What would be a good compromise street and occasional track set up that's cheap? I probably want more biased to the street side than the track as I still drive the car every day on Michigan roads and will probably only do 4 or so track events a year. I know Rob and others like the Apex kit for bang for the buck, but I'm concerned about harshness.

Another thing I didn't mention. In the fifth and final session I went out and did a lap to warm everything up before 'going for it'. When I started my first lap at speed I got an interesting feeling from the front left in the corner. It sounded/felt like a loose wheel bearing. I pulled and checked the torque on all four corners then jacked up each corner checking for play but found nothing. I went out for another tentative lap but it did the same thing so I pulled off and loaded up to go home. On the drive back if I took a corner fairly quick it would still do it, just not at a slower pace. I began suspecting a CV joint and thought I'd take it in under warranty. But once I got home it was perfect, now I can't make it do anything no matter how hard I push it. I assume this has something to do with it getting very hot on the track, but I'm not sure what. Any ideas?

Thanks

Adrian
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Here's the other side, no camber.


Bu as other people don't have an issue perhaps it's because I'm running 205/55 rather than 205/50 16's?
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I ran that size once, and didn't notice anything. Maybe I'm just not sensitive to it, I dunno.

What would be a good compromise street and occasional track set up that's cheap? I probably want more biased to the street side than the track as I still drive the car every day on Michigan roads and will probably only do 4 or so track events a year. I know Rob and others like the Apex kit for bang for the buck, but I'm concerned about harshness.
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Harshness is a definite factor with the Apex in Michigan. It's no problem on the Ontario side, but it's harsh on Michigan roads. Especially in the winter. I've talked to CTB about it, and shock oil does thicken when it's cold, and that makes it worse.

The only setup I've driven I could suggest for you, would be the SVT setup. Just pick up a used setup from somebody who's putting on something else.

It'll probably give you 95% of the performance, without any harshness. And cheap.

When I started my first lap at speed I got an interesting feeling from the front left in the corner. It sounded/felt like a loose wheel bearing.
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I think I know exactly what you're talking about. My best guess is it's a cupping of the outer tread blocks on the front tires. On my RA-1's, they wear kinda funny. The cuts on the outer tread blocks wear smooth, yet the center of the blocks remain. So it is more like "hills and valleys" instead of treads.

It only seems noticable when cornering hard, and particularly when cold.

That's what I've found.

On the track, 5 and 6 should really be one turn if you're doing it right. It should look more like a double apex single turn. If you're making two turns, you're not fast.

8-9 is scarey, unless you have the balls to do it flat out.


I've found, that with Rcompounds, stockish power, and a decent suspension, you keep your foot to the floor from the apex of 7, through 8 and 9 to the entrance of 10. It's tricky... If you chicken out and life, you're screwed. If you keep your foot in it, it keeps the weight on the back for the transition from 8 to 9. That transition is brutal if you take your foot off. An underpowered, well tired Focus can make it through 8 and 9 at full power, it's the transition that make it tricky. So just keep your foot down and pull through.

I don't recommend this though.
Use at your own risk.

I regularly made up 2-3 seconds per lap in that ONE spot. I'd see a car a little ways up ahead, pull that move, and be on their ass by 10.
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BRZX3R
I don't think I have the minerals to hold throttle from 7-9!
Do you guys shift from 3rd to 4th in the stretch between 3-5? Sometimes I run into the rev limiter in 3rd, then grab 4th, and right after that go back into 3rd under braking.

My R1's also get the odd feeling from getting rubber stuck all over them. Last time I was out, I went right after the formula mazda's and there was rubber everywhere! It makes autocrossing tough when your tires are full of loose rubber.

Maybe we can get a gingerman gathering of Foci this comming summer.
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It really depends on the shift. It's one of those things where... it's too close to call. Really depends on how much speed I carried out of 3.

You lose a little speed if you hold the rev limiter, but I think you make it up in the corner by setting up better and having things more settled.

When I went with the turbo... definitely needed 4th!


Would definitely like to have a G2G at Gingerman. I think it could finally work next year.
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Do they still do the Wednesday evening 6:00 to sunset for $50? If so I'll be up for some of those in the summer.

I guess I'll start looking for some SVT take off's in the new year. Any one want to swap a new set of SHM 17x7's for a set of SVT take off?


Adrian
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No... but they do have $50 Tuesday to Thursday!
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Rob, Haha, OK I'm up for some after work lapping next year.

I'm not convinced that it was cupping of the tread
, I've experienced that before and it was nothing like that. This definitely felt mechanical as if the wheel bearing was on it's way out. Is it possible that using the Hawke Blue pads with no ducting I generated enough heat throughout the day to cook the grease in the hub's. Then once it cooled down things improved? I know I'm stretching here but if it is something like that I want to get to the bottom of it before the warranty expires.

I'd love it if you drove my car some time and let me know what you think of the wheels/tires for the street. Then you could tell me It's all in my head and to get over it
If your up for lunch sometime look me up in SUPER CDS (Via the Web not Outlook) and e-mail me.

Thanks

Adrian
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I'm really not sure if it could be that... sounds weird. Grease that overheats, the bearing fails, then unfails when it cools? I dunno.

I know exactly what you're talking about, I get the exact same thing, I don't know what it could be. I did kill a bearing on the back once, but it stayed dead until I pulled it off.

Lunch would have to wait until I get a new job. I live in Windsor, and crossing the border for lunch doesn't make sense.

I could drive your car, but I don't know what it would accomplish. I don't think I'm that good that I could really feel much with your wheels. Maybe CTB would be better at that.

I'm a good driver, and know how to pick springs and shocks and stuff... but I'm not a real vehicle dynamics guy.
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No, I didn't mean it un-failed when it cooled down. What I was thinking was that the hot grease was thinner and allowed the bearings to move around a little more and make noise. Once cool the higher viscosity and lower loads on the road meant that I couldn't feel it.

I thought you worked this side of the bride at Livonia trans?

Adrian
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Oh, gotcha. I guess that's possible.

I'm ah, not in Livonia anymore.
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