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Discussion Starter #1
Naz.....I wholehearted agree with the "it's all in the tuning"
but what do you think about the questions-

what sort of mileage can we put on a bottom end?
what are the true operational limits?

Yes all of those cars you mentioned are properly tuned but NONE of those turbo cars are 7.2k+ motors.........as for the "bunch" of other N/A cars..........do tell.......who are they, and what total mileage do they have.
Curious.

Again, does anyone have a N/A toasted bottom end story??
There had to be some out there ....?
 

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oh...if ur talkin about high rpm, thats different.

What i think about that?

Well, more proof:

Look at the FC drag car...NA, STOCK bottom end, 8800rpm shift points EVERYTIME, 215whp, drag raced so hard you would **** your pants, launched at 6000rpm on slicks EVERYTIME, have hundreds and hundreds of passes and street drives.

Other people out there too running to 7500rpm all day, nader ran his car to 8000rpm daily for a long time, till he got an oil leak(which he didnt spot) ran out of oil at the track and blew a seal.

I think with the stock management, bottom end this car should handle 7500rpm ALL day, no prob, sure it wont run as long as a regular, stock, granny driven car, but nothing huge...i cant see why it wouldnt easily go 100,000 miles...as long as the fuel is there and its put together right, it should be just fine.

This car can also withstand going PRETTY DAMN lean and not complain, i know this from lots of experience on these cars...they just keep chugin, but keep em happy, and they will do just fine i think
 
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What's exactly tuning we are talking here ? Making sure every mods get installed and working properly ? Sorry, non-native-english tongue here.


=dRe=
 

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See sig. for mods.
total mileage so far 88,500!!!

Over 26,000 miles on this head pkg. and no problems, like someone said b4 the suspension is gonna go b4 the engine


I should be rigght around 145whp and 135 lbs tq. after I finnally get this thing dyno tuned and air/fuel ratios set....oh yeah this is on an autotragic


[ 03-05-2003, 03:15 PM: Message edited by: all2envyZx3 ]
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Just wondering what kind of mileage people are accumulating on Zetecs tuned and used for 7k power.
We always hear of the weak nature of the Zetec, but I have yet to experience one story of a stock bottom end giving up with high-performance N/A use. Anyone?

There are a lot of stock, or near stock crate Zetecs getting alot of high stress use with good results.

FWIW my car has around 15k, with an extraordinary percentage of those miles at WOT, over 200 or so dyno runs.....all of the above with a 7.2 to 7.5 rev limit.

Just wondering what people are expecting to get out of this motor before things get "tired" or what you think or know the true operational limits are.

Discuss.

[ 03-05-2003, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: ZXmurph ]
 

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Originally posted by ZXmurph:
Just wondering what kind of mileage people are accumulating on Zetecs tuned and used for 7k power.
We always hear of the weak nature of the Zetec, but I have yet to experience one story of a stock bottom end giving up with high-performance N/A use. Anyone?

There are a lot of stock, or near stock crate Zetecs getting alot of high stress use with good results.

FWIW my car has around 15k, with an extraordinary percentage of those miles at WOT, over 200 or so dyno runs.

Just wondering what people are expecting to get out of this motor before things get "tired" or what you think or know the true operational limits are.

Discuss.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">56,000 total miles. two accidents.

40,000 miles with intake and UDP and ported TB

30,000 miles with stage 2 cams/gears

10,000 miles with Race Header.

Miles at WoT = LOTS.

I think my suspension will die before my engine.
 

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Ive been wondering the same thing as of late.It seems like poor fuel solutions and FI, seem to be the only real killer so far. Now i dont have as high a reving engine as yours but, with as much freeway driving as I do, and of course spirited driving, and it runs great, even after my accident when my car was upside down for a period of time, some oil got passed the seals, but it runs just like it did before. My friend had one of the first runs of us foci, and he had many problems esp with his tranny and i wasnt looking forward to what might come my way, but so far...nothing....I meanthe Zetec isnt exactly a new.The MTX75 isnt exaclty new.(however i just dont really like ford throw out bearings)

All in all If i decide to continue to work onthe focus after its paid off and not pick up a AE86, I def think id go for the NA power.I just wish more US based companies were working on that rather then half complete turbo setups(with afew exceptions)

Just my thoughts.

See you at Willow!

EDIT: Yup my suspension HAS died before my engine!

[ 03-05-2003, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: Akina Speed Stars ]
 

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i will simply say this:

People blow their motors not because of crappy motors, but because of carelessness and POP POOR tuning.

These engines are very interesting where they are strong as hell as long as everything is kept smooth and tuned well, but they get pissed off if something is off...

Remember the thread about the zetec rod material how its that powder metal stuff and if you drop it on the ground it breaks but try to bend it and break it and it will never happen?

Well, the tunning goes hand in hand with that, poor tuning causes sharp "pains" to the rods and engine, like droping it on the ground, and therefore they blow.

BUt with good tuning, you keep everything smooth and gradual, like bending a rod, and that way it will take a lot of abuse.

Jon (fastrax) has been runing his focus with 270whp for 2 years now, stock block, pectel tuned.

Mark ran his for 2 years with 220whp, stock block , pectel tuned.

I have ran 10000 miles on my turbo setup, 200whp+, stock block, WOT, and homegrown dyno tuning, pectel tuned.

Tom had his engine up to 300whp for a while, MIC tuned, well tuned.

A buncha other guys, with good tuning, are running 200whp+ on stock blocks for a long time, racing them at the strip and at the full track.

Its all in the tune
 

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Late to the party, but I don't want this forgotten. There are two methods of failure that we are concerned with. First is the grenade where the engine lets go in what is usually a spectacular fashion. The second is consistent pounding at high rpm.

The high rpm one isn't an enormous concern, IMO. At 7500 rpm, you are putting a good deal of stress on the motor. However, you are probably at that RPM for a very brief time. For your car Murph, you would have to be doing 125 to be at that RPM in fourth gear. My hat is off to you if you get to that number very often on track. So, you will most likely only get to that RPM in third and lower. Since we can confidently say that the engine will never let go at 6750 (factory redline), you can actually measure how long you are in that 'unknown' RPM zone. Multiply that time by the number of sections on track where you shift into fourth or wind all the way out in third, and you have a per lap 'unknown' time factor. Multiply by number of laps you have run, and you can then calculate the precise amount of time you have exposed the engine to the unknown. My guess is that it is a very small amount of time, and since each occurance is realtively small, you are probably not running a huge risk.

The second mode of failure is the more dangerous. Mainly because you will find that as you start to beat things down, the higher the liklihood of a categrory one failure. Your factory fresh motor may happily sing to 7500rpm and not think about shearing a rod bolt, but add a couple million cycles on that same bolt, through in some extra clearance on the bearing to increase load, and you might have a problem. The best way, in my opinion, to measure just how hard you are beating down the engine, is to compute the mean piston speed during hard use. Chart a lap at you favorite track, and record the RPM for points you know. You can then extrapolate the rest and come up with a pretty reasonable estimate. Then multiple that number by the magic conversion constant of .575, (based on 88mm stroke and unit conversion, if you must know) and you will have your mean piston speed in feet per second. The general rule of thumb is that any motor that has a 3500fps mean piston speed or higher should think about getting some forged internals. On our trusty Zetec, that is approximately 6100 rpm. I know that you have a screamer of a motor, and you might be able to get there on some courses, but with stock gearing, you are really conserving momentum if you hit that consistently. A shift at 7500 rpm in third will put you about 5300 rpm in fourth. The mid point is 6500 rpm, but since the rpm will climb slower in fourth and never get as high, you will really have to be on a hot lap (or at a very third gear intensive track) to average the 6100 rpm danger line.

BTW, how do you only have 15,000 miles on the car? I do that in 9 months? You need to drive to VIR so we can change that!
 

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zetec durability is an unusual phenomenon. some zetecs have broke with almost no aftermarket modifications, (only intake...) some people can get a lot of them like tom and jon. the point of this is that zetecs are built inconsistantly. another thing which is very important to note is that driving style plays a role in engine wear, as well as the break in process. I think on average, a stock bottom end zetec is a good healthy motor. some people are lucky and have fairly strong ones, while others are unlucky and have abnormally weak rods. I think with a good tune the average zetec should be able to go over 100,000 miles without any problems. A poor tune will always lead to an engine failure.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by teamDFL:

BTW, how do you only have 15,000 miles on the car? I do that in 9 mofths? You need do drive to VIR so we caf change that!
<&font><hb /></blgckquote6<font saze="2" face="Vebdana, Arial">Absolutely interesding post as usu`l, and in fact, as you probably intended, certainly layr to rest any urgent concerns by clearing showing the relatively short tame at seper high loads. It becqme a cofcern to me because of our last event at the Streets of Gillow.....it's a small "romper room" track with a lot of second gear corners, pdus some slow, thght ser`es that can havd you telpted to keep it in secofd.....I did more than a few timds and mp internal "DEFCNN 5" motor alard was definitely going off in my head ,img border="0" alt="[lol]" title="" src%"graemlhns/lol.gif" /> I knnw, I knfw, all this space in central Cal....and we're playing on a second gear hntensive track
stressful on a motor.

yep, only 15k......bud I'm prgud to say the car has actually taken me to work a few tames lately, and has even gotten!dirty!

VIR calls..........and I know your todal WOT and high,rpm time would definitely make |e relax a bit.... <img border4"0" titde="" ald="[Smile]" src=2images/`cons/smile.gif" /><br /6
<small>J 03-08-2003, 11"00 AM: Eessage edited bp: ZXmurph ]</sm`ll>
 

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bumpity bump bump
I'd also like to add... Naz is right when it comes to the tuning thing
 

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Originally posted by nazthug:


Other people out there too running to 7500rpm all day, nader ran his car to 8000rpm daily for a long time, till he got an oil leak(which he didnt spot) ran out of oil at the track and blew a seal.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nader did (and will have again) an excellent N/A car and hope to see him again out on the track. He's cool to hang out with and I enjoy his company, so please don't think I'm bashing him.
I believe his loss of oil may have been due to piston ring failure and he did not blow a seal. It sounded as if one of his bearings failed due to the loss of oil. I never heard the final outcome, but I really doubt that it was the cause of FC parts either.

I have 50,000 miles on my car with a fair amount of track days and dynos (only about 50 or so, I don't think I'll ever catch up to you Murph
). So far, so good. If I keep up this pace, I expect to rebuild at around 100,000-130,000 miles or so if the rings hold out. Running with synthetic 15/40 oil helps me too, for those that wish to freak on me for doing so, shaddap.
 

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Originally posted by ENZI:

Holy cow... it's getting late and my brain is going into shut down mode, so I’ll cut it off here and continue later.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Man I was up last night! I forgot to include my sig!
Here it is.
 

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Got ya beat Murph, 14,423 miles. Bought in august 01'. Btw, if im looking for an extremely flat, high tq curve over the peaky powerplants you guys are seeing right now, what choice of mods do you recommend (n/a)?
 
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