NEW turbo SVT alternative!!!

356 Views 10 Replies 8 Participants Last post by P-51, Oct 30, 2003

Rodrigo_Zuloaga

Discussion Starter · Oct 29, 2003

Hi guys: (info for SVTF)

I have one alternative that a race engine specialist assured me to get 22 psi with OEM drivability and pump gas:

What happens if you add 4 extra inyectors and configure an external management system tuned in bench dyno and laboratory to reacto towards any boost range detected by a MAP connected to the external control unit? (more or less like JRSC).
The Black Oak would never "see" that a turbo is present. The external contro lunit would block of "freeze" the air/fuel ratio at the moment the MAF voltage reaches it's maximum. At that moment the magic begins: The external control unit will inyect the prestablished amount of fuel via the extra 4 inyectors without "touching" the OEM ones.
This way you can manage whatever amount of boost you want.
Obviously here is considered installing Arias ceramic coated pistons to lower the compression to 8.1. The results expected by this genious guy are 24 psi with absolutely OEM drivability. (using a Garret GT28R turbo)

Obviously the magic goes in the way you determine the graphs and parameters that the electronic external control unit is going to send (preestablished), but that's the golden aspect of this guy.

HEY, we are not speaking of me as the origin of this idea, and we are talking of the guy that prepared the winning Formula 3 engines here in Mexico, as well as many English and US fórmula engines. Every CNC and computerized stuff any mechanic would love to have are present at his shop, including engine bench dyno laboratory so, what do you think.

He suggested this to my engine with ABSOLUTE confidence in the results (as he told me) With 350 whp. Electronic boost controller up to 24 psi with pump gas.

I'm one of Tom's next clients, so I want to read some of the expert minds in this forum debate towards what this guy is going to do. Remember that he claims 120 whp more than Tom, on pump gas without craching the Black Oak, and maintaining all drivability that OEM could offer. (obviously with lot less compression).

I drove a turboed Clío RS and a twin turbo Ford Mondeo (both completely desighned and manufactured by him) and both feel as if a train crashed in your butt when turbo boost starts playing, maintaining a very soft and OEM style driving. (by the way the Mondeo kicked the butt of an Audi RS4 last week on track without problems, 1/4 mile and circuit), and he owns a 2002 VW VR6 Jetta with 515 dynoed whp)

We are talking of about $5,500 USD for the whole kit.

So... let's get the discussion started.

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1turbofocus

· #2 · Oct 30, 2003

How is he addressing timing

Just adding GOBS of fuel is not the answer and is not tuning something like this has tryed on the AC3 with the 5th injector

The timing on the SVT is very aggressive and you can add drowning the Cyl with loads of fuel will not make good power and will cause the Cyl Temp to go through the roof and cause other issues

Another thing 24PSI on a 8.1 Focus will not make 350 HP at the wheels when you lower the compression you cal allways rais the boost so with a 8.1 SVT engine i could make one run on 93 and about 20PSI now here is the kicker the HP would be about the same with 8.1 and 20 as it is with 10.1 and 10PSI

Something like this ( there are only made up numbers )To make a point but close

8.2 Compression 20PSI = 210 HP
10.2 Compression 10PSI = 210 HP

My 02

Tom

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ILfocus

· #3 · Oct 30, 2003

keep a spare set of plugs in your car. With cyl temps that high you will be melting electroids weekly.

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CCC

· #4 · Oct 30, 2003

This should be an interesting thread...

CCC

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blueovalbaboon

· #5 · Oct 30, 2003

How is he addressing timing

Just adding GOBS of fuel is not the answer and is not tuning something like this has tryed on the AC3 with the 5th injector

The timing on the SVT is very aggressive and you can add drowning the Cyl with loads of fuel will not make good power and will cause the Cyl Temp to go through the roof and cause other issues

Another thing 24PSI on a 8.1 Focus will not make 350 HP at the wheels when you lower the compression you cal allways rais the boost so with a 8.1 SVT engine i could make one run on 93 and about 20PSI now here is the kicker the HP would be about the same with 8.1 and 20 as it is with 10.1 and 10PSI

Something like this ( there are only made up numbers )To make a point but close

8.2 Compression 20PSI = 210 HP
10.2 Compression 10PSI = 210 HP

My 02

Tom

Tom, I agree with you as far as timing goes, but as for how much low comp pistons will destroy the horsepower capability of the engine, I think you're overexaggerating things just a tad.

I won't claim to have used the most sohpisticated equations in the world, going just by simple physics equations, but near as I can figure, [email protected] is roughly equivalent to [email protected] psi.

Lowering compression does allow you to run more timing than you could on an engine at stock compression, I dunno if that's enough for such high boost levels, but it'll DEFINITELY have a noticeable effect in controlling deto.

He can run more timing than your engine can, so the discrepancies due to compression differences will be mitigated.

dunno if i made sense

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Lee Martinez

· #6 · Oct 30, 2003

Some one remind me how being super rich can raise EGTs. I've read several articles and web sites that say the oposite and even show you how to double your fuel pressure to cause just that.

Also before my engine blew, some of the dyno runs were done super rich and I swear the EGTs didn't get above 1400F, if that high.

Though I am also some what skeptical, you shouldn't dismiss mexican-engineering.

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1turbofocus

· #7 · Oct 30, 2003

with doing the math (I knew some one would call me on it but most got the point )

8.2 compression and 20PSI
10.2 compression and 14.67 PSI ,Is what i come up with but ha maybe im still wrong

Timing is still the #1 Factor ,It still needs to be addressed even with lower compression

manifold temp the excess fuel will burn in the manifold and the turbo housing and can cause extreme temp

Tom

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blueovalbaboon

· #8 · Oct 30, 2003

my 17 (which i admittedly did half-assedly) is a lot closer to 14.7 than your initial guess of 10 was...

That was my only point. Didn't want to start a fight, just wanted to point out that the PSI diff wouldn't be quite so extreme as 20 to 10.

I still do stand by the fact that yah he'll still have to pull timing, but less than you will at 10.2:1 comp, and that will somewhat ameliorate the loss in HP due to less compression. So i'll stick with my estimate of 17 psi.

I don't claim to have your expertise and knowledge, only putting forth an opinion.

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Lee Martinez

· #9 · Oct 30, 2003

Timing is still the #1 Factor ,It still needs to be addressed even with lower compression

manifold temp the excess fuel will burn in the manifold and the turbo housing and can cause extreme temp

Tom

Whole heartedly agree about timing, but again, I question the excess fuel/extreme temp statement.

I mean, not state the blindingly obvious, but you only run the car to the redline riiight. Granted if you were to keep reving the car, it would eventually get real hot, but by the redline super rich A/F shouldn't be that hot.

I'm willing to bet that even by the end of a 1/4 mi run the EGTs would still be under 1500F(max safe EGT on stock internals). Nevermind what a super rich A/F would do to a cat.

Anybody.

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BerinG

· #10 · Oct 30, 2003

this is mostly like the 5th injector.. after the maf pegs out, and the 4 additional injectors start shooting.. how do they calculate the additional air coming in? or is it like the 5th injector that just estimates it and throws fuel at it?

and timing..

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P-51

· #11 · Oct 30, 2003

manifold temp the excess fuel will burn in the manifold and the turbo housing and can cause extreme temp

Tom, that just isn't true!

Tell me, where would this "excess fuel" find *excess air* to burn in the manifold? You need two things to combust. Air and fuel.

If you throw tons of fuel in the cylinder, with not enough air, then it will burn as much as it can, and the excess gas will leave the cylinder. Where did the excess air come from? Air does not flow up the tailpipe. So how did it get to the manifold? The only place it can come from is the cylinder. If it was in the cylinder, it would have burnt their with the gas.

Otherwise, I agree, that you need to reduce timing to even think of running that much boost.

Even then, there are limits. Just yesterday, I was working on a problem with my car. The checkball controller is set to 9psi, but if I slam the throttle open at 4000rpm, it spikes to 14psi and comes back down. No matter how much fuel I threw at it, and 5 degrees of timing, it's still detonating up there.

There is only so far you can take an engine with a given octane.

That being said, I think the idea of 4 aditional injectors is awesome. It's nothing new of course, in fact that's what Edelbrock's Civic turbo kit does.

I would bet, that up to 10psi, the extra fuel with no timing control would work. Past that though, you're STILL going to need timing retard.

A good system shouldn't be too hard. Install a larger MAF, but the signal feeds into the "black box". The box rescales the signal back to what the stock computer normaly gets. Then it takes the extra airflow, and injects extra fuel to go with it. Fairly simple.

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