the evil word around here is "best"

no such thing!

how any of these applications work will be heavily dependent on the spring rates that accompany them, influenced by compression and rebound damping values, and other factors speed, road surface etc.

and they will be most affected by the preferences and skill of the nut behind the wheel

 

You might get something out of this thread I started a few weeks ago in Suspensions. I personally am not a suspension geek so I can't really help you out. I did get some good input from the thread though.

[ 03-19-2002: Message edited by: J-Rod ]</p>

 

Well you can use "best" if you are specific, like "best to resist roll" or "best to create a tendency to oversteer".

Thicker bars can mean a somewhat diminished independence of the suspension, which should be a deterent to going overboard (especially with the front bars).

They are systems though, so unless you compare the bars to the same set of springs/dampers you can't really make a judgement call on any of it. Since you could put a thinner swaybar with some stiffer springs, or heavier front springs with a thinner front swaybar compared to the rear, and other weird combos.

 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Ducman69:
Well you can use "best" if you are specific, like "best to resist roll" or "best to create a tendency to oversteer".

<hr></blockquote>

well, as you allude to, you would have to be *very* specific, much more so than you stated- "best to resist roll" would still have questions about the rest of the "system". "best to create a tendency to oversteer" still leaves the questions about the rest of the system open as well as the wild card of driver experience/skill/technique/style/preference/good or bad habits/or presence of third foot.


so I'm sure we agree that if someone asks us what the "best" of anything is---- they certainly can expect anything but a short answer and probably a barrage of questions right back!

 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by S. on Da 5:
Stock SVT according to the SVT site.

22mm front
21mm rear<hr></blockquote>

Under the "Comparison" section at www.svtfocusonline.com it lists the following:

SVT:
21mm Front
21mm Rear

ZX3 (also the SE and ZTS sedans, though not specificially listed on the SVT Focus Online site):
21mm Front
20mm Rear

Additionally, the S2, Street Edition, SE Wagon and presumably ZTW Wagon (this one is a gues, haven't seen the exact info on the ZTW Wagon anywhere) use the following bars (no specific reference for this, but it's what's been discussed in the Suspension forum many times):
21mm Front
21mm Rear

Just checked www.svt.ford.com under the "Vehicle Specs" link... It's info contradicts the other "official" site...
22mm Front
21mm Rear

Could one of the official SVT people please confirm what the actual sway bar diameters are?

 

can the eibach rear bar be purchased seprately?
i am not putting a huge drop on my car probably the kw kit or similar eibach kit and i think that a little bit beefier rear bar will help to bring the car to a more neutrol feeling or possibly some understeer

 

I think the front big rear slightly smaller is keeping the Focus very neutral and controlled.

I'm not sure if aftermarket sway bars are even necessary.

Oversteer may be good on a slow autocross cone course I don't think it would be very good for faster tracks.

Oversteer at 80mph on a fast track could lead to a wipe out. That is my opinion.

The Addco bars stick to the ZX3 and SVT chasis tuning philosophy of big front and smaller rear.

Maby that is better for the Focus Chasis.

I'm not sure.

[ 03-20-2002: Message edited by: S. on Da 5 ]</p>

 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by S. on Da 5:
Oversteer at 80mph on a fast track could lead to a wipe out. That is my opinion.<hr></blockquote>

While that is the case, it is still preferred for talented drivers that can be fast and consistent on the edge. I'm not one of them, but they do exist!

 

Oversteer does not translate to "on the edge" except in rally & a tight autocross course where speeds do not remotely approach 80mph. At speeds like that, the most neutral setup is favoured.

 

The lower the speed, generally the more you want the car tuned for oversteer. The higher the speeds and wider the sweepers get, the less and less of that you want (but since its a front driver, I think we should always have a general tendency for that off throttle).

In general, the thicker the bars the less the car will roll and the more you affect the independence of the suspension. And as a trend (all else being equal) the thicker the rear bar is in relation to the front, the more the car will have a tendency to oversteer.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Oversteer at 80mph on a fast track could lead to a wipe out. That is my opinion.<hr></blockquote>
Always keep in mind that this is a FWD car though... and you can invoke understeer the same way a RWD car can invoke oversteer. So I'd never tune a front driver as much towards understeer as I would a RWD car. Otherwise, you'll just end up plowing on or off the gas (bar extreme maneuvers). But you could end up in a situation where you are forced to get on the brakes while already near the limit in a turn because of some other egg head you are racing with, and then you might end up flippity-floppin.

[ 03-20-2002: Message edited by: Ducman69 ]</p>

 

Me I would go with the full eibach system. Why? because even a SVT can be improved on. Ask any Tour driver/Cobra owner or any other performance ford driver.

 

Good points guys. I know a loose tail is much spookier at high points.

As far as the Eibachs... Somebody else here was suggesting that huge bars were a band aid for other more proper suspension tuning. Don't know what others' feelings were on that.

There is definately a use in tuning the bars, but the sizes offered by the Eibach kit kind of creep me out. Isn't 25mm a little excessive for the rear?

[ 03-21-2002: Message edited by: OmniFocus ]</p>

 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TLP:
Me I would go with the full eibach system. Why? because even a SVT can be improved on. Ask any Tour driver/Cobra owner or any other performance ford driver.<hr></blockquote>

If you go Eibach then you will only want the rear because the front bars are the same size.

 

True the bars are the same diameter, but are all 22mm bars created equally??

>8^)
ER

 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by CharlesWA:


Under the "Comparison" section at www.svtfocusonline.com it lists the following:

SVT:
21mm Front
21mm Rear

Just checked www.svt.ford.com under the "Vehicle Specs" link... It's info contradicts the other "official" site...
22mm Front
21mm Rear

Could one of the official SVT people please confirm what the actual sway bar diameters are?<hr></blockquote>

Why did Jackson Racing replace the stock front sway bar with the Eibach Sway Bar if it is the same thickness as the stock SVT front sway bar?

Is the circular non "sticky" bushing/mount design better than the Ford Focus's flat/sticky mount bushing design?

These are the type of questions that I spend hours upon hours thinking about.

[ 04-22-2002: Message edited by: S. on Da 5 ]</p>

 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>True the bars are the same diameter, but are all 22mm bars created equally?? <hr></blockquote>
As long as they are the same material and not hollow, then I'd have to say yes. The spring rate (since its really just a twisting spring) should be the same.

 

Personally, I went to the SVT spring's (front and rear), and the SVT front struts, (rears are not available yet). Then I just added the Eibach anti-sway bar kit. The Eibach set-up made a huge difference, to the already great SVT handling. The rear bar is huge, but ZX3 and SVT's for that matter seem a little (top heavy) I guess is the best way to describe it.. No longer, the rear sits very well now. A great set-up. Highly recommend this combination...

 

OK....
SVT Focus:
21mm front, 21mm rear.

How is stock different form aftermarket? Aftermarket uses totally round bars and bushings that have a round inner diameter. This means they are free to rotate in the bushing. The ZX3 and SVT bars have what we call "grippy bushings". The Ford bars have two flats stamped into the bar at each mounting point, and the bushing has matching inner geometry. The stiffness of the bushing actually contribute to the stiffness of the bar (as a system) since the flats act upon the bushing to wind it up (so to speak). Therefore, an aftermarket 21mm rear bar is not the same as a 21mm stock bar. The SVT rear bar is approximately equal to a 23.5-24mm aftermarket bar (I pulled those numbers from my butt, but I'll bet I'm pretty darn close). I've driven the SVT on a racetrack with JUST the Eibach rear bar. It has only slightly less understeer than the stock bar. However, I noticed that the car did not ride as well on an undulating straightaway.

I'll leave it to you guys to play with your cars, but I gotta tell you... You'll be hard pressed to find a car that handles this well and rides this well. I've driven most of the aftermarket kits. I have an aftermarket kit (complete) on my ZX3 and I'm waiting for all the SVT parts to become available so I can put those in.....

Bias??? Check it out....

 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Dean_SVT:
OK....
SVT Focus:
21mm front, 21mm rear.

How is stock different form aftermarket? Aftermarket uses totally round bars and bushings that have a round inner diameter. This means they are free to rotate in the bushing. The ZX3 and SVT bars have what we call "grippy bushings". The Ford bars have two flats stamped into the bar at each mounting point, and the bushing has matching inner geometry. The stiffness of the bushing actually contribute to the stiffness of the bar (as a system) since the flats act upon the bushing to wind it up (so to speak). Therefore, an aftermarket 21mm rear bar is not the same as a 21mm stock bar. The SVT rear bar is approximately equal to a 23.5-24mm aftermarket bar (I pulled those numbers from my butt, but I'll bet I'm pretty darn close). I've driven the SVT on a racetrack with JUST the Eibach rear bar. It has only slightly less understeer than the stock bar. However, I noticed that the car did not ride as well on an undulating straightaway.

I'll leave it to you guys to play with your cars, but I gotta tell you... You'll be hard pressed to find a car that handles this well and rides this well. I've driven most of the aftermarket kits. I have an aftermarket kit (complete) on my ZX3 and I'm waiting for all the SVT parts to become available so I can put those in.....

Bias??? Check it out....<hr></blockquote>

Thank you.

This was driving me crazy.

I have the Energy suspension Bushings on my stock ZX3 bars.

www.randyryanracing.com

Randy almost has the same set up as me. He is going to install the Eibach Sway bar kit. With his racing experience I think his track times and feel for his car will be excellant feed back on the sway bar topic.

With the Koni's and H&R Race Springs and bushings it handles very neutral. Just sticks to the road.

I think I could use a little toe out adjustment for quicker turn in.

I got rid of my sticky bushings for Polyurethane... I know they don't fit right. It is driving me nuts.

I will Probably put the stock front bushings back on and add a beefed up rear sway bar like the Eibach.

Not sure yet.

[ 04-26-2002: Message edited by: S. on Da 5 ]</p>

 

I have been thinking about the "sticky Bushing/flat spot" factory designe sway bars vs the fatter after market sway bars alot.

I really don't think the soft rubber bushing really do much with the "flat spots". I just don't see how the flat spot would do much with the limited rage of movement. Also I like the idea of more range of moventment and firmness with a fatter sway bar and proper fitting circular sway bar and polyurethan bushing.

One thing that I do think that the "flat spots" help is keep the sway bars from sliding around.

Eibach's front sway bars slid around when they first came out. Now Eibach makes a bracket kit that helps keep the sway bar from sliding.

 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Dean_SVT:
OK....
SVT Focus:
21mm front, 21mm rear.

How is stock different form aftermarket? Aftermarket uses totally round bars and bushings that have a round inner diameter. This means they are free to rotate in the bushing. The ZX3 and SVT bars have what we call "grippy bushings". The Ford bars have two flats stamped into the bar at each mounting point, and the bushing has matching inner geometry. The stiffness of the bushing actually contribute to the stiffness of the bar (as a system) since the flats act upon the bushing to wind it up (so to speak). <hr></blockquote>

Great info Dean, I think I had the pleasure of meeting you at IAS/SEMA- I just pulled a stock ZX3 rear bar today and was surprised that I don't recall anyone commenting on the stock bushing's clear differences to aftermarket.

What are the benefits? Lighter weight from getting more from "less bar"?

I am curious how you "tune" the bushing? Different durometer rubber etc. or? Also since it's gripping, doesn't this also add to wheel rate in steady-state (staight and narrow) driving?

Interesting stuff, and thanks so much for hanging out here.....

 

Dean_SVT... I understand what you are saying... but we have to put it in perpective.

We are talking about twising a steel bar and twisting some soft rubber that is the consistency of jellow pudding by comparison.

You could surely wind it up with your hand grabbing one end of the bar... but I bet you won't be able to generate enough torque to put a twist in the bar if the other end is still attached.

See what I'm getting at? Its like putting a rock on top of Mount Everest and saying its taller. Well it IS taller, but insignificantly IMO. SVE probably put 21mm bars on the FSVT instead of massive ones like the Eibach for the same reason they put on 129 pound/in springs (on the front) instead of massive 360/450 pound/in springs like I have on my H&Rs. It'd be a pain in the butt... literally. And you can't tune a factory car for as much oversteer for simple safety reasons (don't want people spinning out in the rain when they step on the brakes in a turn).

So they kept the spring rates (both bars and coils) at a reasonable level for a nice compromise between comfort, handling, and safety.

 

Duc-
I just found it interesting that they ARE different and are adding some resistance if only as small as you note---at least some thick Chocolate JELL-0 instant I would say.....its there just to hold the bar in place???

mmmmmmmm chocolate
I don't think anyone would doubt the reasons you stated behind the basic wheel rate selections....our usual "starting" point for most cars we like

 

I agree with Ducman. I really don't think the flat spots with the stock soft bushings do much. If they were polyurethane with the flat spots the result would be greater.

I think more than anything the flat spots keep the sway bars from sliding around.

For the record I believe I was the first person at Focaljet to notice the Flat Spots on the stock sway bars. I posted about them with pics awhile back.

Couldn't find the thread.

I found this one that is sort of old.

http://www.teamfocaljet.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=3&t=000530

Energy Suspension really needs to design better bushings that incorporate the flat spots in them for the stock bars.

 

Yeah, I think it was a design flaw on Eibachs part -not- to incorporate those. At least they have an alternative to keeping the bars in place now though.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Why did Jackson Racing replace the stock front sway bar with the Eibach Sway Bar if it is the same thickness as the stock SVT front sway bar?<hr></blockquote>
Good question. Didn't catch that before. Probably just marketing. Afterall, the point of the car was to show some mod potential, and the rear bar is afterall a different diameter. I think you are right and they could have just left it off though (I would have).

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>The SVT rear bar is approximately equal to a 23.5-24mm aftermarket bar (I pulled those numbers from my butt, but I'll bet I'm pretty darn close). <hr></blockquote>
Not really related, but just for those wondering. Each mm bar increase makes a huge difference in the spring rate (if they call it that for twisting bars):

The formula:
R= [pi (G) (d^4)] / [50 (b^2) (L)]
where R is the roll rate in pounds per inch, pi is 3.14, G is the modulus of the material which in the case of anti-roll bar material is 11,500,000, d is the diameter of the bar, 50 is a constant, b is the length of the anti-roll bar arm measured from center to center, and L is the length of the anti-roll bar. (no I didn't remember that, its copied and pasted hehe)

Since we are keeping the shape and material the same we can see that the spring rate (or I guess they call it roll rate) is to the 4th power.

So a 24mm bar would be about 170% stiffer than a 21mm bar (and the Eibach rear bar is a whopping 200% stiffer than the SVT's so one should definitely notice a difference). Thats why I was saying I doubt a little soft rubber could achieve that massive of a difference considering you could probably deflect it by hand. BTW, the bars are obviously related to the spring rates too, so comparisons need to be with the same car and just different bars. ZX3 with Eibach bars would probably feel a little different than a SVT with Eibach bars. Not to mention that the dampening rates would make a difference too (especially if they are different front to rear).

To make it really simple though, if you take an SVT and put on the Eibach rear sway bar and leave everything else alone, it should become considerably more tail-happy as well as reducing roll somewhat.

[ 04-28-2002: Message edited by: Ducman69 ]</p>