Falken Azenis Tires!

(or dare I suggest a strut bar?

)

Honestly, from what I know that you have done, my only guess is maybe stiff springs up front. I don't think there is much left you can do up there without fabricating your own setup.

[ 03-15-2003, 06:43 PM: Message edited by: Egz ]

 

Well, less negative camber will help, as will less front sway bar. Of course, neither of those will bring about anything positive in terms of handling. Sorry, welcome to the wonderful world of rules induced compromise.

 

I have FRESHLY Heat-Cycled New Azenis...

D'Ya Think that I should try unhooking the Front Swaybar???

 

There is a question for you! Are you using a late-Apex and getting wheel-spin? If so where is the understeer? If you are having an oversteer, with wheel-spin, then your braking is a little TOO late. Are you transfering the weight to the rear of the car at the proper time, or perhaps your weight is ???? Have you modified your line thru the corner to induce understeer? Look very careful at the questions and perhaps something will open up for you. Remember the age old notations "It is the Driver........"

 

Eibach Front and Rear sway bars. Finally got to put them through their paces today at an auto x event and made a hugh difference. Made my life a whole lot easier on the track.

 

Front wheel spin? I don't believe you! You don't gotz a turbo YO!

There's not a whole heck of a lot you can do. Especially if you don't want to trade off handling. You could run an SPI front swaybar. You'll get more oversteer which I guess it good, but more body roll which might not be.

 

Have your read this series? Anyone the least bit serious about performance should.
http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/physics.htm

 

Time to train your right foot to be as sensitive as your left Mike.

 

No one said the oldest trick- less front tire pressure.....it's worth a shot......just keep the front/rear ratio of pressures the same....you might hate how it "feels" with lower pressure but I'll bet it'll offer the same lateral grip (and sometimes more..remember the absolute lowest pressure that still offers a stable patch is usually the grippiest set-up) with unquestionably a little more exit traction......and yes, at little expense of steering "feel".

[ 03-16-2003, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: ZXmurph ]

 

I'm not sure if this would help with autoX because it is relativly low speed, but when I'm at the track, I usethis wheel spin to my advantage. It was actaully suggested to me by a veteran racer. Since I'm a low horsepower car, going up against those who usaully have twice the power, I use the wheel spin to shave off speed in the corners. I can out brake most of the cars there, so if I enter the corners fast, and late apex, by the time my tires connect, I'm exiting the corner faster than I would be if I was able to maintain zero tire spin. It may sound unusual, but was able to drop around 10 seconds off of my lap times!

 

On a 100-second course????
Wheelspin won't get you 10 seconds on any typical Auto-X.
Aside from Tire-Wear, the problem with the wheelspin isn't so much the lack of forward propulsion, (Though THAT Sucks TOO....

), the problem is that the nose "Pushes" more when that's happening. The power goes to the Spinning Wheel, which also means that the non-Spinning Wheel isn't "Pulling" the nose in the right direction as well as it should.
The "Lack of Propulsion" is also a big problem, because while you're spinning tires, you're losing Valuable tenths of seconds...

 

Originally posted by captain-orange:
I can out brake most of the cars there, so if I enter the corners fast, and late apex, by the time my tires connect, I'm exiting the corner faster than I would be if I was able to maintain zero tire spin. It may sound unusual, but was able to drop around 10 seconds off of my lap times!

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">hey..I AM a big, open minded fan of "whatever works" but if you are fogging the inside tire, there is just little chance your exit will be faster than if you feathered it for a lot less slippage.

......I mean acceleration is acceleration.....would excessive wheelspin beat a moderately slipping car off the line? no.....so how could it be a faster technique exiting a corner?

maybe in practice you mean, and I would agree, that overly aggressive with low hp WILL tend to be faster that *overly tentative* with the throttle-- in other words fearing any slippage to a point where you are not approaching maximum acceleration on the way out........I could see that.....

[ 03-17-2003, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: ZXmurph ]

 

Originally posted by ZXmurph:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by captain-orange:
I can out brake most of the cars there, so if I enter the corners fast, and late apex, by the time my tires connect, I'm exiting the corner faster than I would be if I was able to maintain zero tire spin. It may sound unusual, but was able to drop around 10 seconds off of my lap times!

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">hey..I AM a big, open minded fan of "whatever works" but if you are fogging the inside tire, there is just little chance your exit will be faster than if you feathered it for a lot less slippage.

......I mean acceleration is acceleration.....would excessive wheelspin beat a moderately slipping car off the line? no.....so how could it be a faster technique exiting a corner?

maybe in practice you mean, and I would agree, that overly aggressive with low hp WILL tend to be faster that *overly tentative* with the throttle-- in other words fearing any slippage to a point where you are not approaching maximum acceleration on the way out........I could see that.....</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i dont think he's saying that the wheel spin will make you go faster. i think hes saying

"dont sweat the wheelspin, enter the corner hot, late brake, get in the right direction and hammer it, the speed you kept by doing that will more than make up for the loss of accelleration caused by the wheelspin"

eh? makes sense to me, but it eats tires and brake pads/rotors alive...

heh. as i learned last weekend... (spinning the passenger side tire through an entire slalom element...)

anyways thats my perception of his post.

 

Michael
This is the curse of FWD. If wheel is turned, you are going to spin tire. . I like to back off throttle to let rear come around (still think it is more effective than that LFB sh**

and try a later apex. Sometimes it is faster to go slow. Another thing is try a gear higher. If you figure with spin you aren't going forward, gear higher with stop spin and allow forward motion. If you are at redline, you aren't making horsepower or torque, anyway.

 

Originally posted by rheacer:
Sometimes it is faster to go slow. Another thing is try a gear higher..

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Definitely have noticed success in a lot of cars with this one.......just because it seems like we are lugging it in the higher gear, we assume we are going slower even when it is NOT the case. Almost always true on a stupid tight course that tempts you to go back to first.....it is almost ALWAYS faster to crawl out of second because of no shift time and ease of initial exit traction.

[ 03-17-2003, 06:37 PM: Message edited by: ZXmurph ]

 

In the instances I'm talking about, that'd mean going to 3rd.
99.5% of the time, the only time my foot touches the clutch to go back to first, it's because I've blown the run, and nearly come to a stop. THEN, I'll grab first to get back to speed to "Practice" the rest of the lap, (You can NEVER "Make up Time"...), but otherwise I'm always in 2nd gear. I've gotten wellll into 3rd at a couple of PCA events, but local SCCA courses can always be done in 2nd.
I'm pretty sure that going to 3rd in the cases that I'm talking about would DEFINITELY be Slower and would "Bog".

I was hoping that struts, Springs, or Swaybar would have some impact in that area.
(I've already got my air-pressures set for the most grip that I can get w/o excessive roll-over...) Which component does the most to "Keep the INSIDE Front tire Planted"?

 

I was talking to some people at my Evo school, and mentioned your problem, and one suggestion, like before, is a smaller front bar. But I'm not sure if that will help more or hurt more.

I was getting a lot of that on the wet track, but I was heavy on the gas. As I started easing off, it wasn't so bad.

 

Heck, even if you think you're getting away with the lowest pressure....try a bit less anyhooo.....you already know what "excessive roll-over" is on the Azenis??....isn't this just set #2?...who knows, maybe traction and a clock thinks otherwise no matter what the old shoe polish tells ya'....for example, I never thought my GTI would be faster with low twenties in the rear....and there it was back to back to back at a test and tune when I was bored and trying anything.

Of course, in all, I think the reality may be that it's a case of any changes you make giving up too much in another area and slowing you down more.
Certainly curious about Omnis input though, as he as autocrossed a lot on A032rs, which are not a huge step grippier than Azenis....well maybe not. I certainly know his car runs DAMN strong for "stock".

oh yeah.as far as the three components (springs,damping,bars).....call it "a well damped high front spring rate" is certainly a traction help, while big wheel rate from a bar can have, as noted, the opposite effect for traction.......at least in my romper room tin-can fwd VW P.O.S. experience.

 

I'm also re-pondering what I'll do once I add F/R Camber-Plates....
I KNOW that more Negative Camber will aid in Lateral Grip, since the weight is shifted to the outside wheel.
My concern is that I fear too much negative camber will even further reduce the traction of the lifted Inside Front tire.
Am I correct, or will the change be negligible w/ regards to an unloaded wheel?
If I AM Correct, I wonder where the line would be between Cornering Grip and Acceleration Grip (While turning) Gains/Losses....

 

hmmmmmm.......yep that is another elusive compromise......camber effecting traction for both acceleration and braking....so yes, another example of too much of a good thing.

a great example of playing these combos is how much traction they are getting out of the SRT-4--- pretty fundamental tricks
- very little to zero static camber (and decent wheel rate to control it)
- a 205/50/17 tire....offering a bigger longitudinal contact patch

voila.....impressive traction for the power.

now to see what happens to that traction when they go for crazy grip and camber plates.......well, then that quaife
becomes heroine.

 

One quesion: Is this any better or worse after your recent suspension mods? I can't really see how the Konis in the rear would increase the problem, but I still thought I'd ask.

I really wish I had experience with the Falkens, but if they are anything like the other tires I run, then I always do a quick little throttle on-off-on to regain grip if I've gotten too greedy on corner exit... of course that doesn't help your quest for a non-technique altering fix.

How much negative camber are you running?

 

The Problem is the same to slightly better since adding the rear Koni's.
I'm sure a more-controlled/less-excited throttle-foot will help, but I want to do whatever I can to help the car help me in problem areas.
I don't have camber-kits yet, so, with the "Crash-Bolts" I'm running -1 degree. (+/- .04)

 

Thanks Omni, That's what I've been saying, too. Am I the only lost with the reasoning of putting high zoot suspension parts on a car and then NOT putting the best rubber under it? (See Suspension section.) Michael have you thought of SP so you can get some real tires? I don't of any way to magically plant the inside wheel. Fineness is what you are looking for, I think. As far as tire pressure, if you are happy with (or concerned with) the roll over, find a pressure you are happy with on the front and raise the rear-same as increasing spring rate, stiffening- reducing understeer, which should put more weight back on the front tires at the same time..

 

Originally posted by rheacer:
Thanks Omni, That's what I've been saying, too. Am I the only lost with the reasoning of putting high zoot suspension parts on a car and then NOT putting the best rubber under it? (See Suspension section.) .

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">um.....well Azenis ARE at least the best available STS tires......as their national championship and general showing in street tire classes would clearly attest. No, it's not an R, and not that close.....we all know Michael is just thinking about what might help within his current class and current set of tools

suggesting R rubber and a class change would be no different than me teasing him with my Quaife (which I would *never* do

)

[ 03-18-2003, 10:30 PM: Message edited by: ZXmurph ]

 

Originally posted by ZXmurph:

suggesting R rubber and a class change would be no different than me teasing him with my Quaife (which I would *never* do

)

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Eventually I'll make the jump out of STS, but I'm sure to be in STS for at LEAST the rest of this Season. I'm running for points, as well as the budget concerns. I still have improvements to make and money to spend before I max out STS Rules.
After that, we'll be looking at a Quaife, Wicked Wheels and Tires, and some stout engine work.

'Til Then, I'm just planning my Mod path on the "Most Improvements for the money, while still allowing for Forward Expansion w/o replacing too many of my replacement parts".