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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ive been looking at racing harnesses for when i go mountain driving and autox and such. focussport has some corbeau harnesses that they say mount to the stock points http://www.focussport.com/corbeau.htm
i was thinking of getting the 3-pt. snap in but am not sure if i should get the single or double release. If its already snap in then would you need the 2nd release?
im planning on using these with stock seats and backseats.
Would a Schroth harness be any better, i read they are street legal and stuff, but do they make em for our cars, they dont have it listed on the chart of applications.

i know 3-pt are supposed to be unsafe and all, im just using it so it will keep me in the seat when driving hard. would a 4-pt be any better really?
Also should i wear my regular seatbelt with the harness?

thanks in advance
 

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3 and 4 point belts *are NOT* racing harnesses. They IMNSHO are all unsafe. You're safer in your stock belts. If you just want to hold your butt in the seat, then get a strap with velcro that wraps around the seatback. Clamp that down to hold you in, and the stock belts for safety.

5 points is the minimum for a racing harness, and new info is suggesting 6 points are the way to go.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
i know they are unsafe and all that, but im not going to be using them all the time, and wearing my regular seatbelt with them should be safer shouldnt it? the 3-pt and 4-pt is all i can use with the stock seats. I just want something to hold me against the seat so i dont have to keep leaning and stuff
 

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i know they are unsafe and all that, but im not going to be using them all the time
You just want to use them when you are driving in situations that include exceeding the speed limit on mountain roads and cornering hard right??

Unless you are going to commit to having a proper cage and mounting for a racing harness, go with a strap like what P-51 and rheacer mentioned. Those [censored] rice-boy harnesses can kill you in an accident. I don't see any reason why you even need to ask the question.
 

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I'm going to echo the statements that 4pt aftermarket belts are bad for any use.

If you are in a crash, the stock belt fires a "pre-tensioner" which actually drives the belt down to the floor, wrapping it tighter around your hips. This does 2 things: 1 - it keeps your butt in the seat if the car goes airborne/rolls, and 2 - it keeps you from sliding forward in the seat (submarine-ing).

A 5/6 point belt will protect you from the second case. If you sub in a front crash, it's much more likely that the air bag will injure you. The 4 pt puts you at a higher risk.

My .02$ for keeping Jetters around longer - Be Safe, Go Fast, Live to Tell the Story.

~Paris
 

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so which ones do we buy? i am confused.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
would it be ok if i used a 3-pt harness and my regular seatbelt at the same time? if not, then why?
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I dont understand why a 3 or 4 point is so unsafe anyway, the Schroth racing harnesses are street legal and DOT approved and its a 3-pt http://www.schroth.com/english/container_english.htm click on products, then street. It says it has "asm" that helps reduce the risk of submarining. If the bottom lap belt is tight enough i dont see why you would submarine in a harness?
 

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The biggest issue with 3 and 4 point harnesses is the stupidity of the people that use them as an "interior mod" and the marketing of them to people who have no business installing one in a vehicle. Below is an image of a Schroth harness installed 2 different ways in a Golf. The driver has it mounted to a hard point above and to the rear of his shoulders, the passenger to 2 points below and to the rear. The picture is from a Schroth distributor. I would not want to drive a car with either of these setups, though I consider the driver's to be significantly better. The passenger's is mounted in a way often seen in Sport Compact show circles, and I have a hard time believing that it passes US regulations in any vehicle, though I admit that I may be missing something. In a frontal collision, tension in the shoulder belts will tend to push down on the top of the seat and on the driver's shoulders. There have been cases of improperly-installed harnesses breaking seatbacks and seriously injuring the belted occupant. There may be a magic angle that the rear belt makes with the horizontal at the top of the seat back, below which is safe, but I was not able to find that reference in any Schroth literature. The driver's setup is much closer to what you would get with an ideal mounting system, which is to mount it directly behind you and around the same height as the seatback or the top of your shoulders. My issue with the Schroth setup is that the driver's momentum normal to the tension in the back strap will tend to pull the driver's head toward the window.



Harnesses do have their places, and if you decide to get one, do it right. For autocross and spirited driving, you would be much better off with a velcro or similar chest strap that will release in a crash and let your car's stock belt do its job. A harness has to be pretty tight to do its job properly, though I noticed that Schroth had a retractor for one of their systems. Check it out and let us know what you find. I just wanted to give my opinion and keep a fellow Focaljetter safe.
 

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Were are you guys attaching the crutch straps? The one for my Sabelt harness has two anchor points that I suppose you could bolt to the floor, re-inforced by a back plate?
 

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To answer Soon2be and Deezlins' question about submarine-ing. In a typical race car application, the seat cushion (under your rear and thighs) is angled well upward. This is combined with deeply contoured, structural, side bolsters in the seat, the lap belt of the harness, and the anti- sub (crotch) strap(s) to keep you located in an 'unscheduled event'.

Putting a 4pt race harness (any design w/out an anti-sub strap) on non-SFI seats is risky because the seat angle and bolstering will be less, or the seat may not be as strong. It is difficult to get the belt tight enough to compensate for the lack of seat containment and still be able to feel your legs. If you've ever had a pretensioner go off in your lap, it can leave a pretty good bruise as it yanks you down into the seat.

Do 4 pt belts look cool? yeah, sure.
Do they make it nearly impossible to tune the radio when wearing them properly? yep.
Will you be as safe in a crash as with your stock belts? Likely not.
Are some of them street legal? yep.
Does that mean that they were designed to work with the rest of your vehicle to protect you in many different types of impacts? Nope.
Will a poorly installed or improperly used 6 pt harness protect you in a crash? Nope.

My .02$
~Paris
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Thnx for the info guys
Im guessing alot of the injuries were because people didnt tighten the harnesses enough, and kinda left em looser so they could move around and do stuff like mess with the radio?
would it be ok if i have my seat bottom angled all the way (adjustable on svtf) and the belts really tight (like i would do anyway)? My friend uses a 3-pt harness and he tightens the crap out of it when we go to the mountains, and he really cant move at all in any direction. All i really need is to be able to move my arms and legs anyway. I sit with my seat back up in a proper driving position too.

It says those Schroth harnesses are factory options on BMW's in Germany too, so i would imagine theyre pretty safe?

Also nobody answered this, arent you supposed to wear your regular seatbelt with the harness, and wouldnt it be safer to do this and make wearing a 3pt or 4pt harness ok?

like i said, thnx for the info guys, im kinda new to this
 

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To answer Soon2be and Deezlins' question about submarine-ing. In a typical race car application, the seat cushion (under your rear and thighs) is angled well upward. This is combined with deeply contoured, structural, side bolsters in the seat, the lap belt of the harness, and the anti- sub (crotch) strap(s) to keep you located in an 'unscheduled event'.
I'm sorry, this really isn't true at all.

First of all, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, 3 and 4 point belts are absolutely NOT ALLOWED in ANY sanctioned motorsport. Why? Because they are not safe, no matter how they are installed, how tight they are, or what the seat looks like. PERIOD.

The seat plays NO role in restraining you in a crash. It does not matter what the angle of the lower cushion is.

I've been over this before, but it's been a while, so here we go again:

3 and 4 point "race harnesses" are unsafe. Less safe than the stock 3 point. PERIOD. Why? Here's why:

The shoulder straps are buckled into the center latch of the harnesses. That latch is in the MIDDLE of the lap belt. Let's model a body as two masses, hinged in the middle, with 100Lbs on each mass. In a crash, your upper mass slams into the harness. In a 30g deceleration, that exerts 3000lbs of force on the harnesses. Those harnesses, are pulling UP on the latch. This pulls the lap belt up. The only way to resist it, would be if you tightened the lap belt with 3000lbs of force, which you can't do, obviously.

So the lap belt lifts up off your pelvis, now, the 100lbs of mass which are your legs, pull your body out from underneath the lap belt with 3000lbs of force. You slide out underneath the lap belt, and strike the floor with about 6000lbs of force. It's not pretty.

The purpose of the 5th point is NOT to catch your nads and exert 3000lbs of crushing force on them.

The 5th point, crotch strap, or anti-submarine strap is actually designed to RESIST the pull of the shoulder harnesses. When your upper body pulls up on the center latch, the 5th belt pulls the latch DOWN. Holding the lap belt on your pelvis, which therefore holds your ass in the seat.

Now, another word of caution:

Some people (and I too am guilty of this
) install the lap belt using stock seats. The 5th belt wraps around the front of the seat, and down to the floor. This is UNSAFE! In a crash, the 3000lbs of pull on the harnesses will just pull the 5th belt, which will compress the seat foam. The lap belt comes up, and out you go.

You MUST have a hole in the bottom of your seat, and the 5th belt should come straight down from the latch to it's mounting point. This way, the belt is pulling straight on the latch, instead of wrapping over something like a seat cushion and then down.

If you ever see a "racing seat" without a bottom hole, it's probably because it's just a pimpy racing seat, not intended for actual racing. It probably isn't FIA approved, and probably isn't very strong. It's a similar situation to "4 point racing harnesses". Somebody makes a pimpy part, slaps the name racing on it, and everybody goes googoo over it.

However, it may be the seat was designed to be used with a new generation 6 point belt.

The intent of this new design, is not just to have two crotch straps to cradle your jewels. The straps are actually supposed to come out of the latch, and wrap down UNDER your legs, and then BACK through the same holes as the lap belts. The idea is, you are creating a harness, much like a rock climbing harness. You are creating a loop that wraps around your legs up the inside. Now, the lap belt is not just holding your pelvis in the seat, it's actually part of a loop cradling your legs.

The nice thing about this system, is it's easier to use with stock seats. The 5th and 6th belts wrap back around to the floor with the lap belts. You no longer have to have a hole in your seat, or drill holes in the floor for a 5th mount.

Here's the idea:



I think you'll see these systems becoming more popular, as more people realize the advantages.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
thanks for the info
but wouldnt it be ok to use like a 3-pt and your regular seatbelt at the same time? that way you would still have the tensioner on your lap from the stock seatbelt and wouldnt submarine? would that work?
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Does anyone know the answer to my question above (2 posts up)?
 
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