I know some people running Dynalites and they have near zero problems. My buddy "Fiero" Dave Cole fabbed a nice setup on his 3800 power Fiero using Dynalites and has nothing good to say.

The ability to use 16's is only a bonus on the street. Track tires have very poor offerings in 16's in the widths that will fit the Focus. For me and my wallet, 15's are the only way to go, but if I had the coin, I'd do 15's over 16's anyway.

The principle constraint is the size of the Superlite which will cause you to have to make a more drastic change in the wheel offset. As one who preaches the virtues of correct suspension geometry, I think you might give this careful consideration.

I hate to ask this, as I don't want to be seen as trying to take business from Todd who is a tremendous resource for the Jet, but do you need these? In the PRS thread you said that you only do mods that you need (when asking about why I did bushings) and you have never reported any braking issues other than buying the wrong pads. With the cascade effect in full force, it seems out of character for you to be looking at these. Unless of course you plan to ever let me drive the car...

 

I think I may just bite the financial bullet and run my 17" ET42mm TSW wheels. Todd has suggested the new Forged Superlites in this case which I think I may go with. The only thing holding me back is im not sure if I can bring myself to pay $50USD more a corner (the price difference in between 205/40/17 and 205/55/16) for tires.

Decisions, decisions.....

 

There is a new caliper available from wilwood called midilite. It has full dust seals for street use and a squel reduction system (SRS). I don't think it's on the wilwood web site yet but the UK distributor Rally Design has them. Rally Design

here is what they look like, very similar to the billet dynalite:

 

Rich, yeah, I need them. I know I say that I don't kill the brakes on track, but that is because I try not to. I take it easy. Really easy. I'd like to be able to dive bomb corners. I feel almost like my development of driving skills is being held back because I can't learn proper braking. It's like it's a tool missing from my toolbox. You know I only brake at about 50% effort, start real early, and overbrake the corner... Because I'm always worried the brakes will fail mid-corner.

I've been in a Mustang that had NASTY brake failure, and it's not fun! I don't ever want to have that happen to this car. I was going into a corner hot, and the brake pedal went to the floor with no warning. It had been OK the corner previous.

I never want to end up in that situation again, so I always slow very gently, and too much. I start early, 50% effort, and stop early, maybe coast about 20-50 feet before turning in. I ALWAYS give myself an extra 20-50 feet at the *end* of a braking zone just in case I need it.

So... I want to have confidence in my brakes.

More later...

 

Instructed at as Acura club event this past weekend at Tallageda GP course. No brake issues with stock pads, Conti, etc. No, wasn't the faster instructor there (darn ITS BMW's), but no issues with 2 90 MPH straights, one into a 200 foot skid pad. No fade. Hard to get too much brake, though. Conti's not race tires, but really not bad for street tires. I may go with them again for street.
www.itrca.com/events/talladega/

 

More on the subject of wheels and tires:

I currently have a set of 16x7" 45mm offset Team Dynamics Motorsport wheels. I will check to see if that brake package will work in those wheels, with no spacers.

If spacers are required, no go. I don't want to have more than 45mm effective offset. If that is the case, I'll look at the Dynalites, or maybe even the Brembos.

I would then put probably 205/55/16 Yoko A032R tires on those for trackdays. This tire has a height of 24.8". The standard SVT tire ContiSport Contact 2 has a height of 24.7". So I see NO issues fitting this tire in the car.

Any disagreement there?

When you say there are more tires sizes available in 15", I wonder what you are referring to. I see only two choices:

225/50/15. This tire is too wide for me. I've had tires too wide for a car before, and I won't do it again. Sure, you can avoid full lock so as not to rub. But in a spin, you often don't have that option or presence of mind. I chewed up a set of R compounds on my Mustang when I spun and the inner sidewall contacted the A arm. The tires were toast, chewed right down to the cords.

205/50/15. This is what I currently use. They are a little on the small side. It was good when I had stock power, but now that I have the turbo, it is more of a hindrance than a help.

Cost wise, a 205/50/15 is $104, and the 205/55/16 is 137. So, $132 per set extra. Yeah, it sucks... I do only buy one set per year though, or less... so it's not the end of the world.

Rich, did I miss anything? Other than cost, I really don't see any disadvantage.

And remember, Chris and I have about twice the power of a stock car. Basically we will be adding about twice as much kinetic energy on every straight, and that will create twice as much heat in the braking zones.

Rich, given the fact that you're smearing Hawk Blues... I'm surprised you doubt the need?

Just so there's no confusion, no offence taken or intended, we're just having a discussion.

 

First, the wheel question.

Look at what tires you can get in 205-50/15 versus the 205-55/16. Last time I checked, I think every competition tire was available in 205-50/15 and not so sure for the 16's. While you may be able to find your current tire of choice in the 16's, how long will that last. There must be a reason why some of the tire companies chose not to produce the 16, so there is less liklihood that the new ones will be in that size. Right now, if Yoko bails on the A032R (rumored) and doesn't put a new tire in that size, you are locked on Michelin$. Your money, but if it were me, I'd be real cautious of this one.

I did not take into consideration that you have boost and therefore want to shift less. The gearing change of the 15's will be a negative, but I cannot imagine that it is that big of a deal. I'm with you on the 225's. Rubbing is bad.

I doubt the need simply because you haven't had the problem. OK, maybe you have babied the brakes because you think they aren't up to snuff, but put some good pads on and then decide. I am all for preventative measures, but this, IMO, is kind of drastic. Yes, I am smearing Hawk Blues, but thet aren't what they used to be, and they still don't fade. You may put more strain on your pads because of power, but I really doubt that it will be that much. Just because you have twice the power, doesn't mean you will go twice as fast. I know the heat and speed relationship is not linear, but I think you may be overestimating it.

Of course, if there is anywhere on car that should be overdone, it is the brakes. If you can stand up and say:
"I am doing this because I want the comfort of a large safety margin"
then all other concerns are peripheral and you can ignore my questions and we'll just answer yours.

I know this is just a discussion. This is the forum for adults. We can have a difference of opinion and not get all nasty about it. That is, after all, why this isn't in the brake forum, right?

 

rheacer: We are talking regular ZX3 brake upgrades. I think you have a SVT as you mention the Contisports which only come on the SVT.

Im wondering how hard it would be to make 225/45/17s work (and by work I mean not rub under any conditions) with a spacer. I can get 205/40/17 RA1s for $190 each but if I can fit 225/45/17 I can buy some 032Rs or Azenis for $150 each.

Augh maybe I should just try some Hawk blues and go from there....

[ 02-24-2003, 09:59 AM: Message edited by: Chris F ]

 

Is there any indication that 205/55/16 is a less popular size than 205/50/15? I don't know how you would know either way.

Toyo makes the RA1 in the 205/55/16" size. Kumho does not make the Victor Racer in a 205 size.

They DO however, make the new Ecsta 700 in 205/45/16, for $118. What's up with that? What's the dealio on that tire? It's a 23" tire, so about the same size as the 205/50/15. My guess is they are making that tire for the whoever is normally using the 15, and want to do a +1 wheel package.

Hoosier makes their R3S03 tire in 205/45/16, and 215/40/16.

I'd never want to have to buy the Hoosiers, but it seems that *somebody* is buying tires in this size range, because EVERYBODY is making tires here.

No?

Maybe I'll call my favorite tire place [cough]www.talontire.com[/cough] and see what he thinks. I'm sure he'd know if the 16" sizes were in imminent danger of being **** canned or not.

I have actually wondered if TCE can make a 11.75" brake package that might fit in a 15" wheel. He doesn't currently, but it's probably because of lack of demand from the blingy crowd.

I bet it has almost the same performance as the 12.2 and 13" rotor sizes. Reasoning?

The larger rotors do NOT have more pad contact surface. The pad/caliper is just moved outward on the rotor, but the pad size is the same for all 3 rotor diameters. So, the rotor gets bigger, but the pad still touches a fixed amount of it.

Yes, total swept area, and heat absorption would be better. But the difference might not be THAT good.

I'd rather get the good calipers now, and then when it's time for new rotors, I could upsize with no problem if I needed to. Just need the new brackets. But it should all just bolt right on. If I got the Dynaolites and wasn't happy with them, it's a bigger deal.

"I am doing this because I want the comfort of a large safety margin"

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is definitely a factor. Putting big brakes on a car "just because" is a lot better than if I was putting a 100 shot of nitrous on "just because".

 

Here is what I base my tire info on:

DOT tires are produced in sizes based on usage and projected usage. Notice how no one (save coverage whore Hoosier) is putting any effort in 13's anymore? Dig out some numbers on old A008RS's and you will find triple the 13" applications. Key for the manufacturer is having as many of the fitments for today, while producing sizes for which they can safely project growth. Those sizes which are on the decline, they will often produce a large batch of the old compound tires before ending it, and keep them available that way for a few years.

Autocross - nationally (I mean US, so sorry) stock is the largest group, out pacing all other classes combined. Cars that come from the factory on 16" rims are mostly capable of running more than a 205 or 215. There is a growing number of excpetions, but I think that you will see most Focus class (G and H stock) cars still on 15's or smaller.

Road Racing - IT is the big volume numbers for DOT tires. Last I checked, there were no cars elligible to run 16's in IT. Spec Miata is 15" and less also. American Sedan runs 16's, but the numbers are small and you can't fit Camaro tires on your car no matter how much you want to. Showroom Stock pretty much mirrors autocross stock in terms of sizes.

Beyond SCCA, you may find a high incidence of narrow (relatively) 16's, however, even then you will not find too many. NASA still bases most of their rules off of SCCA so as to attract cars already built. BMW CAA, PCA and POA all run wider tires than you can fit.

You seem to be on to something when you compare the rolling diameters of the newer 16's to the older 55 series fitment. Since many OE cars have a plus one fitment as an option (like the ZX3) perhaps they are making sure that they recognize that market.

There is a fair chance that I am missing something. However, you know what I do for a living, looking at my work sig, you know that this kind of thought process is not total new.

I am sure that Todd could make a fitment that would go under 15's. Naturally, due to their unique tire considerations, this would be a very popular size with rally guys. Maybe you can do some more research and convince him that it is worth his while. In reality, however, since you will have to run either spacers or wheels with different offset, the prospect has little hope of going far, IMO. Most people who are looking to keep 15's are interested in doing so (at least partially) for cost reasons. If you cannot avoid the cascade effect because of the offset requirements, these people (like me) will jump ship anyhow.

I am sure that Todd has already considered this and incorporated into his offerings. I have exchanged enough banter with him (as I am sure you have) to gather that he is pretty bright. And not just in the product development area. Still, if you determine this is what you want, he may make them for you and a dozen or so other people. His work is custom anyway, so it would be like asking someone to make a tire to your size demands.

With continued apologies to Todd, I still say that you should buy a real good set of pads and run them at a couple of events first. At the very least, it will allow you a more gentle development curve in your braking skills. Going from weak street pads to a strong, complete, full race setup might be a bit much to ask. By no means am I discouraging you from inbesting in great brakes. I just think that maybe a baby step before a big leap would help in the long run.

This forum rocks.

 

FWIW, my tire guy says he doesn't think those tire sizes are in danger of going out of production.

BTW, anybody in Canada should be getting your tires from Talon Tire. He quoted $45 to ship w sets from Montreal to Windsor, and his prices are lower than you will find anywhere else.

Going there for a tire change is a religious experience. They drive your car in and place it over a low rise single post lift. Put rubber blocks under the chassis contact points, and lift it.

4 guys simultaneously take tread measurements across the thread on your old tires, and they will let you know if you have any wear issues.

The wheels are taken off and carefully mounted and balanced.

They remount the wheels (again with 4 guys), hand start the lug nuts, and tighten them by hand with a torque wrench.

It's the closest most of us will come to a professional pitstop.

 

This forum rocks.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No man, this place sucks! Why all the haters man? If I want to do something, you all should be happy no matter what it is, cause it's unique and original! If I wanted your opinion, I'd have asked it.

Oh, yeah, I guess I did.

Sorry, cracks me up everytime I see something like that. People ask or show something then get bent out of shape if people disagree.

P.S. Todd has caliper brackets for the 11.75" rotors, but doesn't think you can get a 15" wheel over it anyway. I'll find out hopefully tonight.

[ 02-24-2003, 01:29 PM: Message edited by: P-51 ]

 

For those of you who arent quite sure what we are on about you can see pictures of the regular Billet Superlite calipers with 12.2" rotors on a ZX3 in this imagestation album. The brake shots are about two thirds of the way through.

http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4292032629

 

Hey, those look like TD Motorsports! What size?

For the lazy:

VS

 

Damn... I made a template to see if the fit my TD's. You know, I'd like to know, one way or the other. Go, no go. Pass, Fail.

But No.

The edge of the caliper just *kisses* the radius of where the spoke meets the rim. So, you'd say it won't fit right? Well, I have square corners on the template, and the caliper would have rounded edges. HOW round will determine if it will fit. But we don't have that info.

 

...why are you getting wilwoods? Are you road racing?

If not, don't bother. run some carbotech or hawk pads, some motul 600, stainless steel lines, and BAM. better brake fade resistance.

However, if you look at anyone with Wilwoods (specifically the Dynalites), you'll see a lot of the calipers have plugs of some sort. Since there are 4 bleeder valves for EACH caliper, and the material for the bleeder valves is very very very weak, so when you accidently over-torque the bleeder valve, you'll be cursing at the calipers.

 

Lot of open track, and 240hp.

 

Originally posted by P-51:
Lot of open track, and 240hp.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok? So, you're not involved in competition just hot lapping/time trials?

Honestly, before you spend hundreds of dollars in some calipers, why not try using better pads, fluid, and lines? Even brake ducting if you have a fade issue. What is the issue with your brakes now? Can you lock them up? Is there immense brake fade?

Even stickier tyres will significantly increase your stopping power.

I'd try other avenues first before committing to the calipers.

Plus, the wilwoods need constant maintenance. Periodic flushing/cleaning, frequent bleeds, etc.

Just so you know, I do extensive autocrossing and open track days and have spoken to several Improve Touring, SM, SRX7 guys, granted, the classes don't allow brake upgrades, but they have never made any concern with their brakes (stock size and stock calipers).

 

Well, I currently use 550*F fluid, I have SS lines already, and brake ducting is almost impossible on the Focus.

The option to try new pads is still possible. But I destroyed a set of Mintex A/F last time I was out. They were completely gone, to the backing plates, after only 60 miles. Rich is "smearing" Hawk Blues. I just have no confidence.

Honestly, taking chances with brakes, on my daily driver, just isn't an option for me.

They worked well at stock power levels, I have no confidence after the turbo though. Maybe it's a product of my Canadian motorsports training. Up there, you can never have too much braking. Any and all brake mods are free in all classes. You could run in a stock class, with 6 pot AP Racing calipers if you wanted. They just don't discourage you from upgrading your brakes, and I've taken that to heart.