Crower Stage 1 or Stage 2?

ZX3 Canuck · Jan 13, 2003

Ok, I did a search and my head is still spinning from all the search results and info contained there in.

I'm looking at some new cams and have narrowed it down to Crower's but can't decide if I want stage 1 or stage 2. The most important piece of info I gleemed from my search is that the intake cam on both the stage 1 and stage 2 cams are identical. At first I was leaning towards the stage 2's but this response by a guy from FC got me thinking and a little confused at the same time:

The Crower Stage-1 cams are actually on par with what was used in the graph you posted. Crower Stage-2 cams consist of a Stage-1 intake cam with a larger exhaust cam. I've found the intake cams seem to limit the power more than the exhaust, and this is why I would recomend Crower Stage-1 with a stock or ported head intended for daily street use. The next step is really up to Crower Stage-3 (the next step up in intake cam size) with a ported head. Unfortunately, Crower Stage-3 cams will not work without clearancing the head, and changing the valvesprings, or I might try them sometime.

Let me give you some background on a good Crower Stage-1 combination before I continue:
'02 Focus Wagon Zetec 5-spd, Generic Cold Air, 70mm Pro-M MAF, FC 65mm TB, Stock intake manifold opened up for the TB, Stock head, Crower Stage-1 cams, FC Cam gears, FC pulley kit, FC Race header, stock flexpipe, and Bosal cat-back.

Low end torque is far superior to stock, with a peak of 153 and strong average numbers. Peak power was 151. Of important note, I stopped adjusting the cam gears at this point to maintain good idle quality, and balance torque and power. Cam gears for I/E set +6/-4. I would have liked to taken the cam gears a little farther, but this is an everyday kid hauler. There is another 7-10 available at peak, but it will sacrifice torque, idle quality and overall drivability.

I hope to have new numbers from the same car with a ported intake soon. I expect gains in torque, power, and that the engine should make power a little higher also. When I'm there I will also take the cam gears a little farther to find their absolute limits.

My point to all this is that you have to be willing to compromise at some point, but that may be for the better. You will not see significant enough gains from the Crower Stage-2 cams to justify the loss in low end torque and idle quality over the Stage-1 grinds if you will drive the car around town every day while you still have the stock head. When you switch to the ported head, Stage-2 is only a larger exhaust cam, which would net you slightly more top-end, but at the expense of low-end. Either will work well with our ported heads though.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ideally I'd like to have power in a band that I find usable, 3500-6000 RPM. I do the occasional auto-x or track day, but 90% of my driving time is on the street in traffic. Essentially I don't want a Honda where I have to get into the high RPMs to get to the real power. The cams would also be dyno tuned with a set of adjustable cam gears. In the search results, there was also talk of proper clearence even though both the stage 1 and stage 2 are "drop in"?

These are my existing power mods, Borla, Iceman, UDP, Diablo and a JBA Shorty header.

[ 01-13-2003, 01:28 AM: Message edited by: ZX3 Canuck ]

KicknZX3 · Jan 13, 2003

i have stage ones sittin next to me and have always found them to be the better decision...also for an upgrade to FI...good luck on your choice. but as i said and will always say..stage 1

EDGE Motorsport · Jan 13, 2003

Ive got stage 2's in mine, and i love them.

The power below 4k is better than stock and the power above 4k rpm is amazing.

I really am very impressed with these stage 2s. They are about as far as you can go without headwork (i think)

Cheers,
M

djvash · Jan 13, 2003

I've heard the stage 1's are better for FI or Nitrous, and the stage 2's are better for N/A. This is what I've heard. The only reason I got stage 1's is because CTZX3 was selling them for a good price. Stage 2's are more power up high, but do not give you as much low end... as far as I know.

RiTzBiTz · Jan 13, 2003

you could take mine for a spin it has stage 2's

Travis · Jan 13, 2003

Crane stage 3`s. trust me on this one... this car likes intake cams

the idle is stock and the power is insane at 3500 and up

ZX3 Canuck · Jan 13, 2003

Stage 3's would be great, but I don't want to get any headworkdone.

Howard:

How does the car pull in the lower RPM's? With the amount of traffic I drive in, I rarely get to access the power over 6000RPM. Oh and I can't remember, do you have yours dyno-tuned?

FriendlyFocus · Jan 13, 2003

Shall I post my infamous stage 1 crowers dyno...

hmm, I think I shall

ZX3 Canuck · Jan 14, 2003

Travis · Jan 14, 2003

You dont have to do any headwork.. I left the head setting on the car removed all the cam followers stuffed paper towels down in there for the sake of keeping most of the shavings out. one by one got them all grinded out right. vacummed cleaned. slapped em in and a couple of days l8r changed the oil. Got almost 5000 miles on the cams and they are still running perfect... dont half ass cams... get the real deal

Seawolf · Jan 14, 2003

Only 2.68 max Hp gain???

Travis · Jan 14, 2003

Your only talking about like 6 more degrees of opening with the stage ones... that isnt much...
practically none..

ZX3 Canuck · Jan 14, 2003

After looking at that dyno, the stage 1's ain't lookin' so good.

I've also read that with the stage 2's, people have actually generated more power by leaving the stock exhaust cam in with the Crower intake cam though the torque drops some.

RiTzBiTz · Jan 14, 2003

The cams are set to 0/0 and they pull nicely in lower RPM's They are the same grind as Focus tunings custom grinds from what I understand...
But you really notice them when you drop it into 2nd or 3rd at about 4000 and drop the hammer.
Screams like a banshee and goes.... You may want to just get your stock cams reground it will cost less and be made to your specs for torque and HP.
frankly I would recommend just getting your intake reground and leaving your exhaust stock.
www.coltcams.com ask for Geoff Mitch knows him as well he knows his stuff. He can even grind your stock cams to crower stage 2 spec i believe.

[ 01-14-2003, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: RiTzBiTz ]

KicknZX3 · Jan 14, 2003

friendly...i've seen that dyno before and its rather bogus...theres no tuning done at all on the cams so how do we know what they r actually set at...also you must have no other mods for those numbers...don't look at dyno and think stage ones r bad.

ZX3 Canuck · Jan 14, 2003

I'd prefer to keep my originals just in case I ever need them again. If I purchased just the intake cam(which is the same between stage 1 and 2) and left the exhaust cam stock, how would the engine run? I won't be dyno tuning the car right away so I'd still need it to run smoothly in the meantime. But when I do dyno tune them, the stock exhaust cam can still be tuned just like the Crower correct?

FriendlyFocus · Jan 14, 2003

I just like to post it every once in a while because I think it's funny how everyone wants solid numbers and "proof" yet if they don't like what they see they declare BS. BTW that's with cams at 0,0, iceman, UDP, FC TB, and Vibrant. And those runs were taken back to back, they are not a before and after.

Travis · Jan 15, 2003

guyss... those cams are very marginally larger listen to me! 6 degrees of diffrence from stock is worth approxiametly 3-4 horsepower at max. The cams just arnt big enough to make a diffrence. On top of that. Buy the damn stage three crowers and get a real set of cams. dont buy just an intake cam because just an intake came wont give you more horsepower.. that has to be a fluke. You want to stick with a set of cams and that set of cams being stage 2 at the least and stage 3`s perferably. I drive stage 3`s everyday and it makes a great daily driving car.

CheaperSleeper · Jan 15, 2003

Travis, I think most of us are just concerned about losing the low end. I drive in very, very bad, horrible, terrible metro traffic everyday, and I don't want to have to rev like crazy. The low end torque is very helpful. Also, don't stage 3 cams "move the curve" to far to the right to be helpful below the usual redline?

Learn it to us big fella!

ZX3 Canuck · Jan 15, 2003

Originally posted by CheaperSleeper:
Travis, I think most of us are just concerned about losing the low end. I drive in very, very bad, horrible, terrible metro traffic everyday, and I don't want to have to rev like crazy. The low end torque is very helpful. Also, don't stage 3 cams "move the curve" to far to the right to be helpful below the usual redline?

Learn it to us big fella!

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly! I don't want to loose too much bottom end torque with the traffic I drive in.

RiTzBiTz · Jan 15, 2003

Just pick up a set of stage 2's from walter and you will be happy... dyno them at harveys with the cam gears and your set you will like them.
Trust me...

Travis · Jan 15, 2003

The way i have my stage 3`s set the lowend isnt bad at all... true you cant mash it from 2 grand and get slammed back in your seat. To be truthful with you. I dont notice a diffrence in daily driving. below 2000 rpms id have to say its a little weaker. But driving on the interstate in 5th gear at 55 mph is not a problem. i still accelerate up most grades from 2000 rpms. I dont feel this massive lowend torque loss everyone talks about. If i have to pass someone i still drop a gear like i always have. I guess if you like mashing it in 5th gear to pass someone then thats your own buisness but the powerband is great on these cams. If you were to spin them on a dyno and set them for max power they would peak out at 7500. but if you tune them for 7000 you get quite a bit more torque outa the bottem end. so they are perfect for your rev limiter. Id have to say that i do have a problem with getting the max out of em because you can pop that rev limiter accidentally pretty easily. Unlike stock cams/engine sound. It doesnt die off at 6000. it lights up. instead of the dismal drop in power before that part of the tach really pulls through and right at about 6500 my bomz cai goes crazy. You feel this huge amount of power that wasnt there before... Its great. Im running 2.5 inch magnaflow exhaust and a bomz and id say with these cams im running higher low end torque or even just about everywhere over 2000 rpms.. Also with exhaust it does lope. It will idle fine. But it just sits there and lopes over. very nice effect. if your going n/a go with this stage. I definatly recommend it. I have bomz cai Mag 2.5 inch exhaust and thats it.

so pretty much stock.

[ 01-15-2003, 05:07 PM: Message edited by: Travis ]

CheaperSleeper · Jan 15, 2003

Thanks Travis!

Crower Stage 1 or Stage 2?

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