[Penguini66]

Something shiny showed up on my door today.

Best price I could find(where someone actually had one that they could ship) was $225 shipped from www.extremepsi.com

Gotta somehow get this thing through PA emissions inspection this week then its off to the welder.

Rod, did you get your stiffer spring yet? Saw your post about the max flow of the Aerocharger and was wondering where you were at now.

 

[Welding Rod]

The TiAL is a beautiful mechanism.

Here's a little tip - I welded on the short tube with flange (that the inlet side of the WG would bolt to) before cutting a hole in the exhaust/cat/orp pipe. After welding, then I ran a hole saw through the newly attached short tube into the side of the exhaust pipe, cutting a 1 or 1 1/4" or so diameter hole. Then I brought the hole to final size with a burr in a die grinder.

This helped minimize distortion, resulted in a perfectly aligned hole, and allowed me to tack and test fit before committing to a location with a bored hole. Plus my tubes were all stainless and I used an argon purge on the backside of my welds to prevent "sugaring" of the backside of the welds.

Spring hasn't shipped yet. It was backordered and supposed to ship on the 22nd. Actually I called them today and decided to order a .9 Bar spring. Tial catalogues one but they (HPF) said they can't get one

- might have to get one somewhere else.

Anyway my thinking now is that at equivalent boost pressure I am now flowing a little more air, how much more who knows, but in any case I am not sure that 12.5 to possibly 13 PSI would be entirely safe for the turbo now. The .9 Bar would put me at 11 - 11.5 PSI, I figure that would probably be enough.

I put an email into Gerhard asking about max safe flow, hopefully he will reply. Right now I am flowing about 21-22 #'s of air per minute, around 300 CFM, at ~ 10 PSI. I figure 3 more PSI (.8 to 1 Bar) should not put me above 25 pounds per minute, or about 340 CFM or so.

Someone locked their Aerocharger up at 243 whp at around an estimated 14.5 PSI (IIRCC), which was probably about 28 pounds per minute, or about 380 CFM. Although I wonder if there may have been some head mods with that as 243 whp at only 14.5 PSI on an Aerocharger with OEM head and so forth sounds too high. I wonder if boost wasn't actually a little higher maybe?

 

[Penguini66]

Hey the search is back and I could finally dig up this thread for an update. No, I haven't had a chance to install the wastegate. Its still collecting dust on my coffee table. But at least it does look cool.

What I wanted to update was that now that its hot out, I'm seeing boost creep all the time now. On a cool evening, no creep. And no creep all winter long. But in the hot mid-afternoon air, big time creep. With the bleed valve set for 7psi, and on a 3rd gear pull, the boost creeps up to 10psi by 4k. And damn does this thing pull hard like that. I know that I probably shouldn't run it like that but I had to once or twice just to see what it feels like. Actually, that's how I figured out it was creeping up. I was in third gear and stood on it at around 3k but wasn't looking at the boost gauge. I said to my self: "Damn, this thing is pulling hard". So I looked over at the tach and boost gauge and verified that it was quickly climbing and I let off at 4k when it was just below 10psi.

Don't know if my vane actuator is just shot or stuck or if its a combination of the opened up intake and exhaust.

 

[Welding Rod]

Here is my current guess on why the Aerocharger boost creeps so much:

The vane actuator gets its pressure signal from the turbo compressor, not the manifold. The charge piping system is rather small in diameter and also long.

Now here is where the guessing part comes in. I think as the air becomes hotter, it moves more easily through the system to the intake manifold. (Aren't fluids less viscous at higher temps?) The compressor may be operating at the same output PSI, but there is less pressure loss when the intake air is travelling through the piping and intercooler system when it is hotter(?).

Therefore higher boost pressure (hotter air temp) = worse creep. Higher IAT = worse creep.

Anybody in the know want to shoot the theory down or cooborate it? Rob what do you think?

In any case with the external wastegate my pressure signal is not coming from the compressor, but rather after some of the charge tube piping and intercooler - and we don't see creep.

According to Tial pressure signal should be tapped prior to the throttle plate (check out their website - good info and diagram). It seems to me it would make the most sense to tap the pressure pickup point as close to the throttle plate as practical - ie close to or at the plenum in the case of the Aerocharger.

PS - Eric, you would really like that 10 PSI from 4 to 6K!

 

[abossana]

here is what happens to me: when i run a manual boost controler with the valve all the way open i run about 5-6 psi. if i run a short piece of hose between the ufo and the compressor (4" long) i only get 1-2 psi. so is the boost controller putting jsut enoughf back pressure to trick the w/g. or is it because the lenght of the line? what if i put a manual boost controler between the 4" line? and wouldnt that be a steady boost pressure? im confused,

anthony

 

[Welding Rod]

It is really hard to say in your case as what you actually have is not clear.

Are you using a check ball type boost controller? If so that would make sense as the check ball could be holding boost signal out of the actuator until 6 PSI or so is reached. Then the signal is strong enough to push the spring loaded check ball out of the way and pressurize the acuator, moving the vanes to reduce further boost rise.

However I thought the other day you said you had a valve in the line. A valve would operate just the opposite. If the valve were all the way open max signal would go to the acuator immediately and result in the lowest possible boost the turbo can produce. Choking off the signal by closing the valve partially would restrict signal into the actuator and result in max boost rise.

Or you might have a bleed valve like the Turbo XS standard boost controller. This doesn't use a check ball but just bleeds signal out of the line. Again, lessening boost signal to the actuator would result in higher boost production by the turbo.

But you ask "what if i put a manual boost controler between the 4" line? and wouldnt that be a steady boost pressure?" If the Boost controller isn't between the compressor and the acuator now, where is it? Is it installed on a bleed hose off the actuator? If that is the case, all the above is pretty much incorrect, and probably backwards.

The length of the line should not have any significant effect.

To get help, you need to clearly describe exactly how your system is configured and what kind of valve / boost controller / check ball boost controller you have. I will help if I can.

 

[abossana]

ok here it goes:
right now i have a valve (spring type) mounted on the firewall, it has a line going from the compressor to the valve mounted on the firewall, and a line comming out of the valve to the ufo thing. right now the valve is all the way open and i am seeing about 5-6 psi. i guess my question is: does the valve still put restriction in the flow even if the valve is open all the way?, because it makes no sence that a line going from the ufo to the compressor with no valve =2 psi, and a valve that is all the way open = 5-6 psi. my conclusion is: the valve is all the way open but in reality there is still a flow restrction. so mabey i need to get a better boost controler mine may be old and worn. and corect me if i am wrong but: the flow direction should go from compressor to ufo? P.S i got rid of the air leak, and solved the problem of the flex pipe hitting the rack and pinion bold!
thanks a bunch

anthony

 

[Welding Rod]

I would say correct, there must be a restriction remaining even with the screw backed all the way out. If it is a check ball BC I would guess it likely that you can only back off to a minimum spring pressure.

I don't see why you would only get 1-2 PSI without the BC though unless the original owner altered something. I think that is the first thing I would do - ask him what the original configuration was.

 

[abossana]

ya i have been trying to do that but he wont reply to my messages. the way he had it was: line from the compressor to the ufo was compleatly pinched off which tells me that he would have been running an uncomtroled boost leval. i have no idea what he was doing. so i am going to try a new BC and see what happens. ill let u know. what do u recomend for plugs that i can buy at kragen/ autozone?

anthony

 

[Penguini66]

After the Wastegate siting on my coffee table collecting dust for a while, I finally got the flange welded on last week and the wastegate installed today. Haven't tested it out to much because I was waiting for a gasket (ORP to manifold).

I tapped for the pressure signal with a 1/4" hose barb with an 1/8" NPT. I put it on the larger diameter side of the phlenum directly above the hose fitting for the throttle body.

With a 7.25 psi spring in there, I'm getting about 6psi indicated on my gauge (which I think has always been off a bit).

But it does work. The boost goes up to 6psi on the gauge and stays! Thanks Rod!!! With the discharge just going down 6" and ending, you can really hear it. Especially when you're next to a highway divider.

Once the car cools off a bit, I'm going to stick the gasket (that just showed up) in there so I can "have at it". Feels great to be able to run WOT above 4k again.

If all I get is 6psi I'll be happy for now. That's probably all I'd like to shove through the engine non-intercooled anyway. I'm not going to mess with different springs until I get my intercooler setup.

 

[Welding Rod]

I'm not going to mess with different springs until I get my intercooler setup.

You have admirable restraint.

... more than I could do - "Just 1.5 more PSI..."

Great to hear you have controllable boost - that is a wonderful thing

.

Think about getting a Safeguard and monitor and getting the timing dialed in real well? I will try and send you some cut and pasted timing values this weekend to look at that won't need to be loaded into your software to be read.

 

[Penguini66]

Yea Rod, Its pretty hard to restrain myself and keep the boost where it is. The past few weeks I got in a bad habit of letting it creep up to about 10psi before shifting. Of course, only on occasion. But still pretty high for a non-intercooled aerocharger on only 93 octane. And damn did it pull at 10 psi.

Would you believe this, the graphics card in my SCT computer took a crap.

Just as I was finally starting to play with it some more. It will run for about 10 minutes at a time before shutting off the display so I'm going to try and transfer everything to my laptop.

Got the gasket in there and took it out for a good flogging. Once everything got nice and hot, the boost went up to almost 7 on my gauge(I was being very easy on it in my earlier post because I had no gasket between the ORP and the header). So with some gauge in-accuracy built in, I'd say that the location I chose for the signal line may just work out. In other words, I should be able to choose the exact spring for the psi I want to run.

I tried everyting I could to get it to spike and nothing. Not even a bit. Nice!

Did I mention that the wastegate sounds wicked. For some reason, I like sounds. I bought air horns for my Focus. And I want to remove the muffler from the Borla. But I think the cool sound from the wastegate will keep me happy for at least a few months. It seems to kick in right around 4k when the Aerocharger can no longer keep up. It kind of reminded me of what it sounded like to have Tom pass me at about 125 on the back straight at VIR. The first time he passed me like that, I didn't see him coming and I thought someone had let a jet on track. It's a really loud Wwwhhhhhhsssssssssssss.

Hmmm, I wonder if having the discharge directed downward is giving me any lift?

 

[Penguini66]

Word to the wise on the discharge tube. MAKE SURE THE TWO BOLTS THAT HOLD ON THE DISCHARGE TUBE FLANGE TUBE ARE TIGHT. I lost mine going into 4 at BeaveRun last weekend. Kind of an scarry feeling to have something fall off your car on track. I know I tightened them down so they must have worked loose somehow. When I got off track, I re-tightened the wastegate to ORP flange bolts. They took about an 1/8 of a turn. Keep in mind that the wastegate was only on the car for about a week. So everything will be getting lock washers at a minimum. What sucks is that I now have to order another flange and make a new discharge tube.

 

[mofocus1]

i have an ACIII sitting here(not yet installed) and im just learning about turbos, hearing all this makes me worry wether i can run mine safely or not, its used and there is no BC on it or a hi/low switch, plus im hearing about bad boost creep? i have the shiny FS AC header and would hate to have to hack it up for a WG but if its needed i guess ill have to

 

[Penguini66]

Oops...

With only three days to fix it and get it ready for Summit Point this weekend, I'm just going to have it welded back together and have some bracing added. Hopefully it will hold together until I can come up with a more permenant solution. The problem is, the weld didn't fail. The material around the weld broke.

I'm open to any suggestions?

Was on the phone with Tond D this AM and he suggested making an ORP from scratch out of some good material except either using the flanges or at least using them as a tempelate. I don't need an EGR bung or a 2nd O2 bung so that simplifies things. I actually think I might go this route in the near future.

FYI - The ORP also has a crack going around about 50% of the upper or manifold flange as well.

 

[Penguini66]

Dumb question but has anybody else taken this route and welded a wastegate flange onto the FC ORP? Just curious if anybody other than Rod has done it and if its lasted.

 

[Petik]

I got my hands on a used AC3 and I'll be using the FS 4-2-1 race header. I also got a Tial 38mm WG, but i really wouldn't want to start cutting the header to the put the WG on it. Do you guys think there's any way to fit the WG flange on the short piece of pipe that goes before the turbo unit (the piece that comes with the AC3 kit)?

 

[Welding Rod]

Eek. I can't remember exactly how much clearance there is, but needless to say, that would be a tough one. If you do, I would sure like to see a picture of how it comes out.

 

[Petik]

Do you by any chance have a pic of your setup? It'd be really nice to see how you have it in place (the word description only got my that far...)

I'll let you know, i'm dropping the block/tranny in during spring break and turbo goes on once it's broken in.

Also, i noticed you're doing a draw-through setup, how's that working out for you? Ever thought about switching to blow-through?

 

[Dudley]

Rod ditched his Aerocharger last summer, but he had a really cool wastegate setup where the WG pipe exited at the side of the front bumper. You can read about his current setup in the Precision Turbo sticky - he tried blow-through but found it was too much trouble (erratic, sloppy fuel trims and lower total airflow potential come to mind).

Rod - sorry to speak for you. I figured you had your hands full tonight in the "best turbo kit" thread.

Edit: for pics, try looking through the FI forum threads from Spring 2004.
Edit #2: Here ya' go: http://www.focaljet.com/ubbthreads/showf...rt=all&vc=1