Re: Public Service Announcement - Re: Coilovers ("budget setups," in particular)
I'm just going to call you Nintendo because I really don't feel like typing out that L with all those i's...
This thread is REALLY interesting to me because I just picked up a set of Ksport Kontrol Pro coilovers with 10k miles on them from a buddy. I haven't taken them to the track but just from driving on the road daily with them set to nearly full stiffness I can't really say that I dislike them. Now I haven't been able to really get on them because my tires are too large I need to shrink down to some low pro 40s instead of 45s. But at anyrate they arn't terrible at all.
Now the reason I'm posting in here really is to say that don't you think it could be possible that people start bashing companies that make a similar product at a cheaper cost to the customer that still performs at the same level? Let me put it this way, say Bilstein took some Ksport Kontrol Pros and tested them and what not and said, "These didn't dyno out as well as ours, all Ksport Kontrol Pros are horrible no one ever buy them." Alright thats fine and dandy one full set of Kontrol Pros didn't function correctly or dyno decently or whatever, but whos to say that they didn't get a set that happened to slip by QC?
If that were the case, I think it'd be
highly unlikely that
all four of the dampers in a single set would be lacking compression damping adjustability when they are supposed to have it. Is it a possibility? Sure, but I don't think that it's likely...
Also, we're not talking about
another damper company when we're talking about Tri-Point. We're talking about a vendor who could feasibly sell whatever products it wants to sell to its customers...
I'm asuming that Ksport is a small company thats just breaking into the scene. Is it not also possible that Ksport has changed its valving design from what it was two years ago? Its entirly possible that the suspension that guy got to test could have been from the first batch ever made and just sat on the shelf for awhile. With out a serial number listed and without knowing what batch and what not those came from they could very well have come from a crap batch. I'm not going to say that guy is a liar he says he did the test, he says he did it with brand new Kontrol Pros, but honestly ever hear the saying, "Pics or shens?" meaning I demand pictures of it or I'm calling shenanigans. I'm not saying he didn't do it but I'm not saying that he did do it, he says he did and doesn't show proof that they were new or that they were even Kontrol Pros.
Actually, if you read my previous posts, you'll see that I acknowledge that
possibility myself. Having had personal communication with Jeff Wong at Tri-Point about this, I'm still inclined to believe that what he posted was what he said it was: a shock dyno plot from a brand new out-of-the-box Kontrol Pro Damper set for a 240SX that was provided by a Tri-Point customer who wanted to know what he had just bought (since Ksport doesn't provide shock dynos for their Kontrol Pro dampers when you buy them).
I'm really just trying to say that this could be a case of a dealer or manufacturer, I don't know what he is, he could have seen that Ksport was making the same quality product at a much cheaper price to the customer and might even have fudged the results all of these things are a possiblitly here Nintendo.
Now I do think that you are correct in asking for Ksport to show what they're dyno results are as I am highly interested in them aswell.
Now on a side note does it not also show that Ksport cares about its product? Does it not show that they atleast want to make their product better or that they are not sold short. I'm almost positive that in the Performance Car part market a name and results go ALONG way. But all those companies have to start somewhere do you think that Bilstien and all of them just started up one day and start churning out award winning super awesome really great suspension? NO.
As I said above, if Tri-Point did as you suggest and saw "that Ksport was making the same quality product at a much cheaper price to the customer," then I'm pretty sure they could have very easily become a vendor and gotten in on the action. There would really be no need (nor motive) to "bash the competition."
Ksport can't do that, and neither could have any of those big name companies they all had to start where Ksport and other "budget" brands that were listed are. I read this whole thread and not once did I see you acutally go out of way and acknowledge that Ksport was out here on probably a little known forum for a car that hardly anyone sees the potential in DEFENDING its product. Now if we had the internet here when Bilstein started or some of those other companies do you not think we would have seen test results and whatnot from other people saying that those where junk and what have you?
Well, considering that Bilstein got into suspension production before my 90 year-old grandfather was in grammar school, I think it's safe to say there definitely wasn't anything akin to the internet around... :lol:
Furthermore, seeing as how Bilstein
practically invented (or at the very least was the first company to mass produce) gas-charged automotive dampers, it's pretty difficult to draw
any parallel to how Ksport seems to be doing things...
If you look into any of the "quality" damper companies I've listed, you'll find that they are well-established firms that not only make automotive dampers (and are the primary suppliers for many many OE applications) but they also produce for and supply to all sorts of off-highway, marine, military, industrial, and rail equipment/vehicle manufacturers.
It's true that comparing them to a niche automotive "suspension tuning" company like Ksport (whose web developers, at least, don't seem to understand the difference between something that lessens oscillations and something that makes things wet) isn't really even fair, which is actually the whole point of this thread!
Yeah Kontrol Pro's might not be the best thing for Road courses but Ksports seeing results with their drivers and racers. Did you personally test out the Kontrol Pros on your focus at a road course or are you just going by what one man with a graph and no pictures to back up his testing process or that he even used the dampers he said he tested. Word of mouth has a good way of ruining alot of things, and before you jump into the boat of Ksport bashing, (which you are bashing Ksport now that they have shown up here) don't you think you should wait and see what Ksports dyno results are? The man said they are willing to test them, show the proof and that they are building a NEW dyno to test them on. Which is another variable I wont get into.
To make a long story short, don't sell a brand new company short just because you heard some stuff and one guy pointed at a graph and said hey heres the proof. You need to gather information from both sides, and now that we have seen that Ksport is willing step up and prove what their product can do I say lets sit back, all take a long deep breath, calm down and be civil about it. Like I said before if that was a graph stating the Bilstein or some other big name company was junk do you think that they would come to our neck of the woods to back up their claims? I highly doubt it.
I'm not trying to be a doucher here I just read this thread and to me it seemed like you and maybe one or two others were lashing out at Ksport and I felt as though you all need to calm down about it. This isn't FF I respect your choice to to procure information as to weather or not Ksport is a viable option for track only uses.
Well, no, I didn't test out the Ksports on my Focus, as I haven't owned one for nearly 2 years...
I don't think I've taken an uncivil tone at all in this thread. No one is "lashing out" at Ksport, as far as I can tell. We just want
data to back up the claims their company makes. Contrary to your assertion, I have actually told KsportBranden that I think it's great that he's here and trying to clear things up:
Again, I really do appreciate your presence in this thread. As ClintB1321 said, we're honestly not trying to crap on Ksport here. We just want people to understand that just because a product looks great and makes certain claims, it doesn't automatically mean it's on par with many of the tried-and-true options out there.
When a company says that their dampers are adjustable for rebound and compression, we'd like to see some evidence that shows that they really are (especially if evidence has been presented to the contrary). Of course, we've yet to see any such data (which, as KsportBranden himself pointed out, is because the company's U.S. arm doesn't even have a shock dyno yet). It's funny to me that KsportBranden is so quick to discredit Tri-Point's results when his company doesn't seem to even have any of their own to post up...
Obviously, people are interpreting my intentions as being malicious, but that is not the case. I simply want people to educate themselves about what it is they are putting on their car, and to make them understand what it is a damper is supposed to do (and that just because the car "rides like it's on rails" doesn't mean that they've actually improved things)...
A little update to the whole k sport part of this thread, it looks like they have just recently completely redesigned the front coilover to properly fit the ford focus, it has some added height to overall unit and you can lower car to fit your needs, and actually has a nice tab welded on to mount swaybar, not that black threaded bracket thing, and they are in process of addressing the issue of how the rears mount. When I receive mine (which should be very soon) I will scan and post dyno so we will see how they stack up.
Awesome. :thumbup:
Do you have access to a shock dyno? It's my understanding that Ksport only actually provides the individual dyno plots for their Circuit Pro setups (which isn't available in a Focus application, as far as I can tell, and whose quality isn't even being questioned in this particular thread).
At any rate, I'd love to see the results.
