For ease of searching in the future, FI is going to be used for specific relation to forced induction, and Zetec tuning for everything else engine/transmission related. Moving to Zetec tuning.

 

I wanna know, too!

Which diff will perform better in rough, rally like condiditions?

Rex

 

Yes I am very interested in some info on these 2 products, and I would really like to see some actual results and data, not just speculation

Anyways, all I know is that the FR200 had the torsen T-2 setup in it........any guesses why they chose it over the Quaiffe ??

 

Originally posted by Rexthespeedster:
I wanna know, too!

Which diff will perform better in rough, rally like condiditions?

Rex

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You want a Torsen for a rally car as the Quaife requires both front wheels on the ground to work.

 

the kaaz diff is more rally friendly than the torsen. the torsen and quaife share the same style mechanicisms, which r't the optimum 4 wheels that r leavin the road time and again.

-Ult

 

Originally posted by Chris F:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Rexthespeedster:
I wanna know, too!

Which diff will perform better in rough, rally like condiditions?

Rex

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You want a Torsen for a rally car as the Quaife requires both front wheels on the ground to work.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">hmmmmmmmm.......isn't the Torsen a very, very similar design to the quaife, and may have the same challenges when wheels are airborne? Dunno,

anyone?

 

Yes, but they have a T2-R that has preload that allows it to still work while airborne. Of course, that is not the off-the-shelf MTX-75 diff that you can buy through Ford Motorsport.

 

Originally posted by teamDFL:
Yes, but they have a T2-R that has preload that allows it to still work while airborne. Of course, that is not the off-the-shelf MTX-75 diff that you can buy through Ford Motorsport.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What if it "fell off the truck"?

 

I dunno if torsen offers this, but you might want to keep this in mind. The Quaife comes with a lifetime warranty

 

Didn't know this was still getting hashed around! I did quite a bit of research on this for my SVT Contour. I posted about this nearly a year go in this thread: http://www.focaljet.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=007245#000020

cut&paste

The configuration of gearing between the two is essentially the same. Torsen claims their design has better balanced loads along the planet gearing. This makes the gears in Torsen's design less prone to trying to "tip" within the bores they ride in. Planet gear tipping concentrates forces on the ends of the gears, and this increases gear wear in those areas, especially during a spin condition. Gears from other types of similar diffs can lose up to .020" on the ends of the gears...that's quite significant. Besides that possible durability issue, the function is largely the same.

In response to that, Quaife claims that it utilizes more internal pinion gears than the competition. This allows for far greater tooth contact which of course promotes increased strength and helps to absorb some of the forces put on the diff housing.

The Quaife differential housing is manufactured from billet steel while the Torsen unit is a cast housing. While a cast housing suffices in OEM applications where the power will not be upgraded, in a high performance or racing environment the stakes are much higher. Any significant power upgrades will increase loads and forces and eventually break a cast housing as the stresses put on the housing are too great. That's probably why Quaife feels comfortable with a limited lifetime warranty, even when used for all out competition...billet steel!

In the case of the design for the MTX-75, the bias ratio of the Quaife seems to be about 1.7:1 or so (puts up to about 63% to the better tractioned wheel), whereas the Torsen is about 2.4:1 (puts about 71% to better side). For reference, the stock open diff is about 1:1, putting only about 50% to either side.

So, the Torsen for this application should provide even better traction than the Quaife. This was confirmed by vehicle testing FRPP did comparing the two, and they decided in favor of the Torsen in their FR200 and in their performance catalog...I'm sure price was a consideration as well...

BUT...they had to replace that Torsen in the FR200 several times! Torsen claims other tranmission failures led to the damaged units.

Personally, I think the bottom line is this:

Torsen offers better biasing but if you're going for big power, avoid!

Quaife offers almost as good biasing and is bullet proof! A must have for BIG power!!!

[ 03-17-2003, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: wonj ]

 

and I think I remember thanking you for great info back then.....so thanks again!

so btw...to your knowledge, how does a torsen respond to an unloaded (airborne) wheel?

 

Man, I'm glad I spen the extra cash for the Quaife....

 

hey zxmurph:

Do you actually notice a traction difference around corners with the quaife?

Nader says he drove both the torsen and teh quaife, and he says the torsen has a bigger traction affect, and the quaife is less noticable

I would love the torsen on teh streets over the quaife where strength isnt teh biggest issue, but the quaife is nice if youre draggin on slicks

Kinda sux, cause most of my driving is on the street, but i do like to go to the strip once in a while....damnit...why cant we have both

 

Originally posted by ZXmurph:
so btw...to your knowledge, how does a torsen respond to an unloaded (airborne) wheel?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you were completely correct in your response above...neither the quaife nor the torsen t-2 is effective if one side goes airborne. they both multiply the torque available from the wheel that is starting to lose traction and sends that available torque (multiplied by the torque bias ratio) to the slower turning wheel with the better traction. a wheel in the air provides zero torque...zero times the torque bias ratio equals? ZERO!

i think someone already mentioned that to combat this you need something like the torsen t-2r with pre-load.

 

damnit..i like the more biasing of the torsen, but im doin 230whp now and will be 300whp max this summer, and i drag race ONCE in a while, i know on street tires, there is no issue, but for that once in a while track event on slicks...should i be worried about the torsen, seriously???

Damn, so its 1%(track) vs 99% street...aaaahhhh

 

Originally posted by nazthug:
I would love the torsen on teh streets over the quaife where strength isnt teh biggest issue, but the quaife is nice if youre draggin on slicks

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">the torsen, with it's greater TBR, should be more effective in any street or racing condition over the quaife. FRPP found this to be true when they tested each side by side. the torsen only falls short when an engine is trying to push upwards of 300hp. then, the weaker cast housing of the torsen may fail...this has the added bonus of possibly causing considerably more damage than just the destroyed diff.

in contrast, the billet steel housing of the quaife should hold up just fine with increasing loads and forces.

as far as i'm concerened it's really this simple: if you think you're gonna push your car upwards 275+ FWHP, get the quaife...better safe than sorry. otherwise, get the torsen...better biasing, better performance.

 

Originally posted by nazthug:
damnit..i like the more biasing of the torsen, but im doin 230whp now and will be 300whp

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">300whp? that's FR200 territory...the FR200 ate torsen diff's for lunch. get the quaife.

[ 03-17-2003, 02:16 PM: Message edited by: wonj ]

 

Originally posted by wonj:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ZXmurph:
so btw...to your knowledge, how does a torsen respond to an unloaded (airborne) wheel?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you were completely correct in your response above...neither the quaife nor the torsen t-2 is effective if one side goes airborne. they both multiply the torque available from the wheel that is starting to lose traction and sends that available torque (multiplied by the torque bias ratio) to the slower turning wheel with the better traction. a wheel in the air provides zero torque...zero times the torque bias ratio equals? ZERO!

i think someone already mentioned that to combat this you need something like the torsen t-2r with pre-load.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was actually reading up on differentials on howstuffworks.com the other day and came across an interesting tidbit:

"The HMMVV, or Hummer, uses Torsen® differentials on the front and rear axles. The owner's manual for the Hummer proposes a novel solution to the problem of one wheel coming off the ground: Apply the brakes. By applying the brakes, torque is applied to the wheel that is in the air, and then five times that torque can go to the wheel with good traction."

 

Originally posted by wonj:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by nazthug:
damnit..i like the more biasing of the torsen, but im doin 230whp now and will be 300whp

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">300whp? that's FR200 territory...the FR200 ate torsen diff's for lunch. get the quaife.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">shouldnt it really be more on how you launch/and what kind of tires?

I mean even if you run 300whp, youre not gonna break a diff on a roll just feeding throttle, the main abuse only comes from the launch right? I mean, if you have a 150whp car but you launch at 7000rpm on FULL 10.5" slicks, and you have a 300whp car that you just drive around hard, i think the 150whp car will break the diff first...

So now its just a matter of how much racing i will be doing at the strip...

Otherwise, i dont see how you can break even a stock diff on a road track or something.
Damnit, i really should get the torsen just because most of my driving will be on the street/road course, but then there is always the chances of goin to the strip with slicks....Does someone make a diff that has BOTH?

 

Originally posted by wonj:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by nazthug:
damnit..i like the more biasing of the torsen, but im doin 230whp now and will be 300whp

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">300whp? that's FR200 territory...the FR200 ate torsen diff's for lunch. get the quaife.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe this is also why Ford chose to use the Quaife unit in the RS. IMHO-it makes sense, being that the RS is a mass produced turbocharged car w/ a full factory warranty & not a custom built show car, Ford wanted something more durable for this reason.

[ 03-17-2003, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: LiquidS2 ]

 

i know i know

i keep saying quaifequafi

BUT the torsen does offer ALOT better power transfer on corners, and if im gona do more road track racing...damn, just almost wanna get the torsen, i just keep hearing the quaife isnt very noticable once you get over 180whp or so....it only transfers like 11%, which is nothing, the torsen does like 21%....hmmm...damnitdamnitdamnit

 

Originally posted by nazthug:
hey zxmurph:

Do you actually notice a traction difference around corners with the quaife?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe with my experience with the Quaife in both low hp and mid-hp VWs (90 to 150hp) and before and after with the Focus (from 110 to 150ish), I probably could discern the biasing difference between the Torsen and a Quaife........but would bet that it would be pretty hard for anyone to cosistently pick which diff. is which in some dream A/B/X blind test.

Yes, you *actually* notice the traction difference around corners if you've experienced your traction limits without an ATB. When pushed to it's absolute limits in a super tight autocross, you get the inside wheel spin the above bias dictates...but it just never "spins" away and is accompanied by the eerie pull into the apex the outside bias dictates. At higher speeds and more open turns, it is of course less pronounced but it is still amazing to distinctly close a line with the same steering input UNDER power.

The best point of view however, was shared to me by Omni after the Streets event...we paired up, well stupidly close a few times

....when following me he could pick out (much to his dismay

) exactly when I was back at full throttle and then how I just jumped away.....keep in mind my car is making no more power than stock at most slower exits points.

Bottom line is either diff. has a huge impact on track performance in the right hands.

Bottom Bottom line is, in my usual broken record, that the quaife, when considering both performance and construction, is one of the few "world class" touches you can give the Focus.

[ 03-17-2003, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: ZXmurph ]

 

Originally posted by nazthug:
i just keep hearing the quaife isnt very noticable once you get over 180whp or so....it only transfers like 11%, which is nothing, the torsen does like 21%....hmmm...damnitdamnitdamnit

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know the numbers just the results........but how does hp change an ATB's effect? hmmmmmmm........think we might be getting back to Naz's throttle foot...I mean throttle "Switch" again

[ 03-17-2003, 06:36 PM: Message edited by: ZXmurph ]

 

Has anyone tried out the Kaaz LSD?

 

well....with 150whp say...youre not going to be lighting up the inside wheel as much as you would be with 230whp and even more torque

I was just thinking, because i get huge inside wheel spin going around even a fast , long corner EVEN IN 3rd GEAR!!

So i was thinking if the quaife transfers an extra 13% to the other wheel, and the torsen does 21%, the 21% of a BIGGER HP figure will be a larger amount...get it??

Just tryina sort the qualities of each, i mean drag racing strength with the quaife is cool, but for everything else, i think the torsen may actually work better

YOU DO KNOW that Ford with the FR200 DID side by side tests of the 2 on the fr200 car and picked the torsen simply because it transfered more power to the other wheel and actualy pulled more power through a turn, in a close comparison? Thats the only thing that bugs me, i know ultimately its up to me, so im just kinda babling, hoping for a magic LSD to come out with the best of both worlds