[JohnStranahan]

Well you have seen the ad where the Duracell bunny starts the entire East Coast generating grid. I thought they would start the car and be lighter. Just kidding.

Here is some more little progress. I found a picture of an F2 customized Duratec head showing the EGR exit at the far right. F2 head Pic below. It looks like there is no water jacket exposed there at least on this custom head. The cavity between the two center inlet ports appears to be a dry cavity on this head as well. I am hoping for the same on the stock head. It will be easy to hook up my copper manifold to the egr tube coming out of the head with some suitable fittings. I will try and order a spare to get started.

The second picture is another view of the airbox showing the short trumpets that will come out of the throttle bodies. There is a small spacing difference between the throttle bodies and the intake manifold runners. This will be made up by flexible connectors. The plastic runner inlet will be ported and tapered to make the air travel as cleanly as possible. I found a 4 inch flanged plastic inlet at Spectre along with a 4 inch to 3 inch silicone hose adaptor. This will be attached to my cold air intake. These will both be black and lend some factory look to the installation. The cold air intake system will be mostly Cosworth followed by a Focus Sport section of larger diameter feeding the 4 inch inlet. I should be able to remove a lot of the bends. My cold air system already has an air box and snorkel at the inlet side so the filter is completely enclosed and it does not have problems with water entry in high water. Details are in a topic on the right column of my Journal.
The Suzuki airbox material seems to be ABS. I am going to try some ABS glue or maybe gas tank repair material to seal some of the openings I have created.

This view of the airbox shows the short trumpets that will help tune a little wider RPM range than a sqared off tube. This filter has been removed and the inside reshaped to maximize airflow to the trumpets.

 

[fordblue03]

Are you replacing the fuel injectors? A 750cc engine is much different than a 2300cc engine.
I am very interested in your build. I definitley love inginuity.:thumbup:

 

[fordblue03]

FYI Emissions are federally regulated and cannot not legally removed. States can improve upon how to regulate by requiring inspections.
Good luck on your track car.

 

[vin0410]

This is a very exciting thread particularly to me. I have one set of Toyota individul throttle bodies in hand also planning to bolt on the D23 engine. They are 45mm each diameter with stock idle bypass and vacum slots for brake and etc. My point of using ITB is much less for hp, but much more for a trial (Just wanna do it). I heard ITB helps power all across the rpm range with the best throttle reaction. However it is also the most difficult to tune. Today it is somehow almost extinct on production cars, with the exception of BMW M cars. Even Farraris do not use it. I do not know why, but in fact single throttle can creat almost the same power as ITBs (but not as good torque curve). Maybe it is because it is just too messy to tune it periodically? FYI the FAQ column in http://www.jenvey.co.uk/ is quite informative. I have not started my project yet, but once I do I will also post here.

 

[Hocky]

My plans on the MAP. I have built a ported vacuum Manifold near the back of the throttle bodies. This will go to maybe a small chamber that will allow the stock MAP/AIT to work as normal. I am thinking of using the extra snorkel on the Suzuki Air box for this chamber.

You do realize that the original equipment does not incorporate a MAP at all? And that is the main reason why your tuning will not work. You will have to find some way to incorporate a MAF in order to utilize the stock computer and then you've negated any gain that there may have been from the ITB's. That said, there is a lot more math involved than 'hey, this thing has 4 itbs, my car has 4 cylinders... it'll work!' when designed intake/itb set ups.

 

[vin0410]

What about Air flow sensor on the air box which encloses the 4 throttles? BMW M engines always use this setup. If it works you do not need a MAP.

 

[Egz]

You do realize that the original equipment does not incorporate a MAP at all? And that is the main reason why your tuning will not work. You will have to find some way to incorporate a MAF in order to utilize the stock computer and then you've negated any gain that there may have been from the ITB's. That said, there is a lot more math involved than 'hey, this thing has 4 itbs, my car has 4 cylinders... it'll work!' when designed intake/itb set ups.

We actually have a MAF and a MAP. However, the stock ECU system won't run on the MAP sensor alone.

 

[JohnStranahan]

hocky-I am using the stock Mass Air Flow Sensor in a much larger Cosworth tube. Why do you think this will negate gains. The Cosworth manifold which seems to be the only one available works similarly. It has gains. The main gain I am looking for are due to increased air velocity from the throttle bodies at part throttle. The air jets from the partly closed throttle bodies will be right in the runners keeping the air speed up and then increased high rpm power from the ability to flow more air. The computer seems to be quite flexible.


The engine does use an Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor in conjunction with an Inlet Air Temperature sensor (MAP/IAT)to calculate engine load. Among other things probably this sensor lets the computer calculate when to open the runner tuning butterflies that open at approximately 3000 RPM. There has to also be some kind of base fuel map that the computer modifies in a closed loop using the O2 sensors on the exhaust.
John

 

[JohnStranahan]

Fordblue03-I plan to use the stock injectors to start with. There is about a 30-40 psi fuel pressure in reserve. This can be raised in small increments to feed more fuel. I will also be able to hook up the motor to a livelink using the SCT tool and monitor fuel trims. Seat to the pants will also easily tell me if there is a bog from lack of fuel.
Note that once you put on that non CARB approved Focus Sport cold air intake you are legally in the same area as I am as far as federal emmisions regulations. That stock air filter is very much part of the system. My plans are to meet emmisions but not the visual inspection.

 

[JohnStranahan]

vin0410-sounds like an interesting project. Give us a pic of one of your throttle bodies when you get a chance.

 

[burnv8]

certainley a good project, i couldn't agree with your work more...

Duratec's are not strangers to ITB's, at least not in the UK, you'll be the first on this site i belive to be fitting ITB's i congrats you if you could pull this off, a message to other members "stop worrying about CAI make A vs CAI make B, and start worrying about REAL all motor performance".

 

[orionlion82]

Fordblue03-I plan to use the stock injectors to start with. There is about a 30-40 psi fuel pressure in reserve. This can be raised in small increments to feed more fuel. I will also be able to hook up the motor to a livelink using the SCT tool and monitor fuel trims. Seat to the pants will also easily tell me if there is a bog from lack of fuel.
Note that once you put on that non CARB approved Focus Sport cold air intake you are legally in the same area as I am as far as federal emmisions regulations. That stock air filter is very much part of the system. My plans are to meet emmisions but not the visual inspection.

as i understand velocity and torque are tied together LOOSELY.

velocity comes frome venturies, funnel shapes, goofy pointless curves and length.

pressure and flow are part B and part C.
this is really complicated fluid dynamics or whatever the science elite call it.

ALLSO NOTE the comment on the first page about the slow tip in.
if you suddenly DUMP lots of air in an engine - especially backing off the throttle and then slamming it down again - like in racing...

your mixture is gonna be all over the place.
bad for the engine, bad for emissions.

super fast plates might make you go rich/lean/rich/lean faster than things can adjust.
especially if you accomplich your velocity and flow goals.

nobody has addressed the basics here and ive only scratched the surface.

freeze! put your hands up and stop the rocket science!

i say engines 101 are in direct conflict.

 

[fordblue03]

Fordblue03-I plan to use the stock injectors to start with. There is about a 30-40 psi fuel pressure in reserve. This can be raised in small increments to feed more fuel. I will also be able to hook up the motor to a livelink using the SCT tool and monitor fuel trims. Seat to the pants will also easily tell me if there is a bog from lack of fuel.
Note that once you put on that non CARB approved Focus Sport cold air intake you are legally in the same area as I am as far as federal emmisions regulations. That stock air filter is very much part of the system. My plans are to meet emmisions but not the visual inspection.

I know whart you mean about the CAI or similiar. I've decided not to go that route and am considering a engine swap from a newer car, since I hear that is a good loop hole for emissions. It would retain the emission system from the newer engine and be considered legal. Of course the computer would be swaped as well as any other parts neccessary. There is more to it than just a newer engine, like vehicle weight and other factors. I plan on doing some research on it and as soon as I can I will start a thread on it.
Good luck!

 

[vin0410]

We actually have a MAF and a MAP. However, the stock ECU system won't run on the MAP sensor alone.

Then can we run MAF alone? Or both must run together?

 

[Dan-O]

I actually toyed with this a while back with a Honda.
I enclosed the ITB's inlet in an air box, a HUGE air box, and connected 4 vacuum lines from the TBs together. I installed a 0.030" MIG welding tip to act as a restriction/buffer in the vacuum line before the MAP.
You need a MAP for engine load measurement, you need MAF to measure air flow needs of the motor.

 

[phongshader]

Interesting project. I'm working on something similar. I'm not worried about emissions as I have a SB100 exemption on my project. I'm casting an intake manifold that the Suzuki throttle bodies will bolt onto with the appropriate hoses. I'm using a Megasquirt ecu for both fuel and spark.
Yes you may be reinventing the wheel but at a fraction of the cost and it's a lot of fun creating an itb set for a couple hundred dollars instead of buying one for a couple of thousand!
http://usera.imagecave.com/system/s.../showpicture.asp?u=phongshader&p=gsxr2duratecITBintakeManifold.jpg&a=Locost_wk4

 

[Focus_wrc07]

Well you have seen the ad where the Duracell bunny starts the entire East Coast generating grid. I thought they would start the car and be lighter. Just kidding.

John, Duracell never had a bunny mascot. You're thinking of Energizer. :thumbup: :lol: That was a good one about being lighter, and everything.

Just keep us posted on progress, and keep up with pics please.

 

[JohnStranahan]

Dan-O- Well write us a little report. How was midrange, top end. Did you get all the bugs out where it worked smoothly.
Phongshader-thanks for the report keep us posted.
Focus wrc07- Yeah I saw that commercial again last night I remembered everything but the brand. It was a debate that or starting the space ship.

I made a couple tiny steps more progress. I picked up the spectre 4 inch to 3 inch adaptor in black. See the pic below. It is attached to a 4 inch flange inlet from spectre that is made for GM MAF sensors. The 3 inch Focus sport bend is also attached. I will cut this pipe to get my neccesary bend. This will hookup to the already installed customized Cosworth Cold Air Intake.

It is interesting that guys with single throttle bodies see value in cold air intakes, but once you start to put on the quad throttle bodies suddenly "there are no gains." I believe gains will be on the same order for both systems compared to drawing hot under hood air. I don't see why "mixtures are going to be all over the place". The MAF will control the mixture. It will sense different air flow at the speed of sound. The electronics don't feel like they are slowing things down now except for the return to idle.

I got a replacement intake manifold gasket set. As they are individual pieces it was not much help in figuring things out. I assume the two blue seals are around the EGR.

There is about 9 inches of clear space in front of the engine for the intake. Maybe 10 inches. The upper tubes in the photo will neccesarily be short rather than the 3 or 4 inches shown. I can gain a couple of inches by moving the engines radiator fans forward, but would rather not.

 

[Focus_wrc07]

John, it's cool. I just thought I'd give you a bit of trouble. LOL.

Looks like you seem to be on track, and making progress. Now only if you can make the MAP/MAF work with the quad throttle body setup, you'll be set.

 

[duggyd123]

this is the dumbest idea i have ever heard of. dude there are so many other ways to do this right.


cosworth coswoth cosworth cosworth. I did i meantion cosworth has the same thing.